In this episode of Art Strategy Impact, host Jess Coldrey interviews marine conservationist Dr. Clementine Seguigne from Tahiti, French Polynesia, about the cultural perceptions of sharks and their impact on conservation efforts. The discussion covers Dr. Seguigne's career transition from engineering to marine biology, her research on shark behaviour and personality, and the importance of international cooperation in shark conservation. The episode also explores the ethical complexities of shark feeding, human safety and the role of ecotourism in conservation.

A typical day for Clementine is anything but ordinary. Her work involves a mix of office tasks, such as data analysis and writing research papers, and exciting fieldwork, including tagging sharks to study their movement patterns. For instance, she is currently researching the behavior of silky and tiger sharks, using non-lethal fishing methods to gather data. This hands-on approach allows her to contribute valuable insights into how human activities impact shark populations.

One of the most intriguing aspects of Clementine's research is the exploration of shark personalities. Just like humans, individual sharks exhibit varying traits, including boldness, shyness, and aggression. Understanding these personalities is crucial for managing shark populations and addressing issues like shark bites. By recognising that not all sharks behave the same way, conservationists can implement more effective strategies for coexistence with humans.

Takeaways

• Sharks follow regular paths along reefs, observing and feeding.

• Cultural stories about sharks impact conservation efforts.

• Shark tagging helps understand human-shark interactions.

• Sharks have unique personalities, similar to humans.

• Shark sanctuaries increase shark abundance and diversity.

• International cooperation is crucial for shark conservation.

• Shark provisioning has ethical and ecological implications.

• Ecotourism can support shark conservation efforts.

• Understanding sharks reduces fear and promotes respect.

Podcast Links

Sponsor | ⁠The Australian French Association for Innovation and Research⁠⁠ https://www.afran.org.au/

⁠Contact Clementine for research collaborations:

Email : clementine.seguigne@aremp.org

For IREMP : https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...

For ORP : https://www.facebook.com/Observatoire...

Transcript

Jess Coldrey (00:00)

Cruising through the Pacific, every stride forward is a fresh new breath for a shark as water glides across its gills drawing in oxygen and blowing CO2 out. No bubbles, just flow and a constant movement that carries them across their favourite morning route or evening stroll. As creatures of habit, some sharks often like to follow a regular path along a reef, observe movements in the sand or grab a quick snack on way to school.

Are sharks good neighbors? Are they dangerous monsters? In this podcast, we'll speak with French researcher Dr. Clementine Seguigne to understand the stories we tell about sharks across cultures and how this impacts conservation. I'm Jess Coldrey and you're listening to episode two of Art Strategy Impact, the podcast bridging disciplines to reimagine how we live, build and belong in harmony with nature.

This mini series on ocean governance is generously supported by the Australian French Association for Innovation and Research.

A big welcome to Clementine. Clementine Sejine is a marine conservationist, hi Clementine, and a shark ecologist based in Tahiti, French Polynesia. Formerly trained as an electronics engineer in France, she transitioned into marine biology to pursue her passion for ocean protection.

Clém (01:12)

Bye.

Okay.

Jess Coldrey (01:29)

Her research has contributed to a deeper understanding of how humans relate to sharks and what drives more effective, inclusive conservation strategies. She's also a key contributor to the Polynesian Shark Observatory, or Observatory de Recueil de Polynes, ORP, a citizen science network that has recorded over 10,000 shark and ray sightings. Through both storytelling and science,

Clementine works to shift narratives around sharks from fear to appreciation and respect. Welcome to the podcast, Clementine.

Clém (02:05)

Thank you very much, Jess.

Jess Coldrey (02:08)

So to start the episode, I thought I'd start with a bit of a question about your career journey so far. I know your journey is quite unique. You started out as an engineer in France and you've ended up as a shark conservationist now in the Pacific on the island of Moria. And I'd love to hear what inspired this shift and transformation in your career and made you want to pivot your career towards protecting sharks, which are very often misunderstood creatures.

aren't they?

Clém (02:38)

Yeah, that's actually a very good question. At the beginning I was following my education in Electronica Engineering and ⁓ it was really interesting because I was working on renewable energies and this was something interesting for me because I wanted to do something for the environment.

But during my school, I had the opportunity to do an exchange degree ⁓ in Malaysia, where I discovered scuba diving. And I just as well discovered my passion in the same time. And the ocean just fascinates me. And I decided to do more stuff about the ocean, and particularly for the sharks, because when I discovered ⁓ diving...

⁓ I was in contact with sharks and I was quite shocked about the difference between actually being with sharks and what we say about sharks which is full of cognitive bias and so I wanted to become a defensor of the sharks

Jess Coldrey (03:49)

How special that sounds really formative. Do remember the first time you saw a shark? Was it during your scuba diving in Malaysia?

Clém (03:57)

Yes, it was actually a small one, was a black tip reef shark, but for me I started to be like, my god, it's a shark! And finally it was just passing and I was like, okay, that's just a shark. And so yeah, this black tip shark really changed my life and changed all my career. And so I'm really happy to have had this wonderful meeting this day.

Jess Coldrey (04:21)

special what a unique experience it sounds like it's influenced you a lot which is incredible and I'd love to hear a little bit more about your lifestyle I was wondering could you please paint us a picture of what your daily life looks like as a shark researcher in Polynesia

Clém (04:39)

So it's quite difficult to answer to this question because actually no days are similar. Let's say that as a researcher you have a big part of office work because as a researcher you have to do research, you have to do data analysis, have to do writing for your publication because this is something important for research is to communicate about your results and what you have discovered.

in an inter-dimensional scale. So publication writing is something very important. But of course, in order to have data, you sometimes have to go ⁓ on the field and do some missions. And this is actually my favorite part, of course, like almost everyone. So for that, we have different possibilities depending on the scientific question we have to answer. For instance,

I'm currently working about movement patterns of silky and tiger sharks. And in order to better understand ⁓ their behavior, we have to proceed to non-lethal fishing of these sharks. So it's like full days at sea trying to catch these sharks and put some tags on them and after let them go. So this is quite interesting and very challenging.

We have as well some professional diving to do, for example to perform breath deployment, so it's like an underwater video without divers, so you can observe the sharks and have information on the specific diversity in an area, for instance. So there are different things you can do, depending on your scientific question, it all sounds well.

Jess Coldrey (06:31)

So it sounds like there's a lot of variety. There's diving, writing, observation, and interacting with the sharks themselves and tagging. Could you tell us a bit more about why you tag sharks and what that process is?

Clém (06:47)

This is actually a process ⁓ which is really in close link with the country. It's to answer to the question about ⁓ what's happening ⁓ between sharks and humans activities because you know ⁓ French Polynesia is a country where fishing is really important and so there is a lot of offshore fishing and

with the waste of the fish, is dumping as well in the sea in order to not produce too much waste. And we really want to better understand what can be the impact of this dumping on the animals which are living there and particularly on the sharks. And for that, to better understand what's happened and particularly if we want to stop this dumping in order to...

to have a sustainable approach and maybe reuse this waste for agriculture and everything. We want to be sure that the health of the shark is respected and that the humans around are safe. And so for that, we catch the shark, we put a little tag on them, and we have some receiver installed constantly through diving. And when the shark is passing around 500 meters, the receiver...

is detected and like that we have information about how the sharks are using the space and is there any difference between the seasonality or between like the amount of waste which is done or not.

Jess Coldrey (08:22)

How fascinating, so it's an electronic tag that must give lot of interesting information.

Clém (08:25)

Exactly

that.

Jess Coldrey (08:30)

That's interesting. And your typical kind of island lifestyle when you wake up on the weekends, you're not working as Clementine the Shack conservationist, but you're just enjoying your Saturday and Sunday. What kind of sights, smells, rhythm and routine is a common way of life on an island in French Polynesia? How do you start the day?

Clém (08:54)

But

you know it's really nice question. Actually, you know, I'm so passionate about my work that I work almost every day and I have the chance to work in churches as well of becoming friends. So it's really nice and so we are working a lot. But working in French Polynesia is definitely something very special because French Polynesia is full of nature, full of culture. For instance, like we don't...

Jess Coldrey (09:02)

Hahaha.

Clém (09:20)

We speak French in French Polynesia, but there is not only the French language, there is as well the Rio-Taichi. And so there is all these different languages. There is as well the smell of tiare flower, the monoi, all these kind of things which are just amazing and so typical of French Polynesia. And this is just amazing. You see people dancing, you see people playing ukulele, and this is just so typical and traditional, and I just love that.

Jess Coldrey (09:50)

It sounds like an amazing culture to be a part of.

Clém (09:53)

Yeah, I'm very, very happy to be integrated there.

Jess Coldrey (09:59)

Absolutely. My next question

is a question I don't think many people ask but I would love to understand who are sharks in your eyes? Do they have personalities? What are they good at? Are they good neighbors to each other? What kind of ⁓ traits do sharks have?

Clém (10:20)

So it's actually a very nice question. So this question about shark personality has been the center of my PhD. Is a shark from a same species, for example, you take tiger sharks, is one tiger shark similar to another type of shark in terms of personality? So we made some experiments, particularly as well on bull sharks in Fiji. And we really discovered that there is not one bull shark as the neighbor.

And this is really interesting because, like, shark personality is treated exactly as human personality. It's inspired about protocols of human psychology, in fact. And we studied shark personality on five different factors. The first is like avoidance of exploratory behavior. So if something is new, we go, we...

Then there is boldness shyness. So for instance in front of a potential predator, am I strong or am I a bit shy? Then there is some different level of aggressivity, different level of sociality and different level of activities. So I would say that finally sharks are like human in a personality perspective of course, we are not the same but...

In terms of personality, is difference between individuals. And so I would say that not one shark is the same as one other shark. And this has strong implications for shark risk management because obviously we know that in some places there is shark bites and this is a big problem and this is really concerning because first this is terrible for local population.

And secondly, because sharks are critically endangered and we have to understand what's happening to both protect local people and the shark population. And it looks like that it can have problem individuals among the shark population, which are the responsible of the shark bites. And some of the sharks will never proceed to these predatory bites.

Obviously every shark, if you disturb them, may respond. It's like you, if you are disturbed you can hit someone even if it's not your natural behaviour. But some of them obviously may have a higher level of aggressivity and this is the kind of animals that we can better follow in the future.

Jess Coldrey (12:56)

Wow, that is so fascinating and I love how you describe the different sort of traits and scales of, you know, anywhere a shark can be on a scale from being, you know, very avoidant to being aggressive or all those sorts of traits. And it does really remind me of human psychology. I'm surprised when I think of friends even, you know, in an emergency or if they're hungry or if they're annoyed, will all act...

Clém (13:16)

It is.

Jess Coldrey (13:25)

differently and express themselves differently and do different things in response to that. you know, people talk a lot about attachment styles as well in relationships. I know one of the main attachment styles is avoidant attachment. We talk about that in human behavior and relationships and the whole, you know, concept of fight or flight. It sounds like there are so many similarities. And I suppose our personalities as well are shaped by our biology, which I'd imagine we share in some senses with sharks.

Clém (13:55)

Yeah, exactly. It's completely true. so there is as well some researchers working on social network analysis. So it's a bit the Facebook of sharks. And for instance, there is this article of Joanne Mouret, which was working on the black teak blue shark, which is a social species. And ⁓ the conclusion of this paper is that there is groups of sharks that are stable. So preferential association between individual sharks.

And this cannot be explained by the sex or by the size or the age of the shark. So everything can be thinkable about why are they preferring this individual rather than one of us. That's something really interesting and something that we have to dig more in the future.

Jess Coldrey (14:47)

So maybe sharks have chosen family as well.

Clém (14:51)

Maybe.

Jess Coldrey (14:52)

I love that and it also reminds me of something else. know, you know, sometimes if they're in in human society, if there's a crime or a violence or say unemployment in a certain group in the community, we tend to take actions that just a few people do and generalize that and profile that group based on that perception, which is one of the kind of negative aspects of humanity. think our our quick

response to stereotype in order to predict danger or predict if something will happen again and so maybe unfairly judge others based on those profiles. Do think that's something that applies to how we understand sharks who are maybe a bad egg in a big group?

Clém (15:38)

Yeah, you resume it quite perfectly. It's exactly that. know sometimes people extrapolate what some individual sharks can do. So first thing that we have to know, there is only five shark species that can be harmful to humans. It's like the great white shark, the tiger shark, the bull shark, the mackerel shark, and the oceanic white tip shark.

It's only these five species. It already happened on bites with other species, but the context shows that something could have been different. And it's not only the motivation of the shark. So first thing, and second thing, you definitely have more risk to be killed by a cow than by a shark. So statistically, the shark is definitely not the monster, you know?

there is an average of 5 bites, 5 bites which are deadly per year, so it's quite low, particularly when you see the number of people which are in the water every day. And when you really think about it, the main killer of the humanity is the mosquito, for instance. ⁓ And really, think people have to put in perspective the real danger of this animal.

and that the cognitive bias which is created about the fear against the shark is mainly linked by the western cultures through the film Jaws, which obviously incidents can happen with sharks, this is definitely true, but this is not something which is common, it's like a plane crash or things like that, it's really really rare.

Jess Coldrey (17:31)

Hmm, that's so interesting when you compare it to cows. I've never heard of that comparison before. I don't think I'd like that either, but it sounds like it happens more often. Now to dive into another aspect of shark psychology, I understand that some of your research findings challenge stereotypes about sharks.

Clém (17:42)

Okay.

Jess Coldrey (17:53)

You've studied their memory and also their learning abilities. And I'm very curious to hear, do you think sharks are very intelligent?

Clém (18:03)

Yes, actually, the results impressed me because I was not expecting as much. During my PhD, ⁓ we had all the COVID lockdowns and stuff like that. And I have to admit that for me, it was an opportunity because for the first time, sharks, which were highly conditioned to ecotourism, so ecotourism often implied the use of feeding.

So these sharks will choose to be fed every single day on one single spot ⁓ from one day to another nobody comes for extended period and so how the shark will react to this and how will be the re-habitation after the lockdown and everything. And so what we observe first result on the black-seed crew shark in Moria island was that

the black tip reef sharks first were not ⁓ continuing to stay starving on the sites like since the first day they were going I don't know where we were doing like a drone flying above the area and we only saw some of them passing but like you know not staying at the place so this was really really encouraging

concerning the potential impact of shark provisioning, which can be probably reversible in this case. So this is really something we were scared of and this observation was really encouraging. And after the lockdown, ⁓ on the Black-tiped Roof Shark, we observed that the abundances that we observed before the lockdown were reached again after one month.

So it's really, really fast. It's way, way more faster than when you create a provision site for the first time. So it means that the sharks remember the process. And so the length of the re-habituation was one month for the black-tip reef shark. But we did the same experiments in Fiji on blue sharks, which are apex predator because like...

We say often that sharks are predators but not all the sharks are at the same level because for example a bull shark can be two black-tiped bull sharks, it's smaller and one is meso-predator, so intermediate predator, and one is an apex predator. And so the bull shark, it was more impressive because the lockdown on this island, because it was a very small, specific island, Coata, and the tourism was completely stopped during more than one year.

And after more than one year, the bull sharks, so the same photo identified before, came back and the business as usual and the best in one week. So it was even faster for the bull shark. So the memory retention capability for these animals were comparable to what we can observe on marine mammals. So that's just impressive for fish, you know.

Jess Coldrey (21:19)

That's fascinating though, sound like very adaptable animals.

Clém (21:24)

Yeah.

Jess Coldrey (21:26)

I was working at a company that had a big change in strategy and they kept using this management book from the 80s that was all about finding the cheese and it was a story about ⁓ if the employees were mice and they're to fed cheese every day in the same spot and then suddenly one day there's no cheese and people

keep going back and waiting in the same spot and passing the days and they say, you know, if we come tomorrow, will there be cheese? Do we need to look somewhere else? What do we do? And all the kind of debates and the mindset that happens within that. And it was basically a metaphor to encourage people to be more open to change and to sense that feeling when it's time to do something different and break a habit, which can be so hard to change. Hence.

the story and hence why companies have so much difficulty changing the way they do things. But it made me think of that story and for the sharks the first day there was no cheese or no ecotourism. To feed them they're very quick to change and I know even as humans we often have trouble breaking our habits.

Clém (22:38)

Yeah, it's a super nice remark actually because you know, it's as well the difference between wild animals and humans, you know Because we have so strong habits, but you know, we have supermarkets we have everything so it's not very big deal if something change But for sharks, know, they have to create like some some sort of mental mass And on the mental maps there is all the little points about potential

provisioning areas. the question about shark provisioning is, am I as a human alright to add a little dot on the mental map of the shark? So it's not because you create a point on the mental map that the shark will stay in style, this was like the question that we answered thanks to the Black-T-Crew shark thing, but this is as well a native-held question that everybody can answer according to its ideology.

Jess Coldrey (23:37)

Yeah, it's surprisingly relatable. something else that you've touched on in some of your responses already is how sharks are portrayed in cinema. So from your perspective, how do you find the stories that are told about sharks on TV and movies and is there room for imagination to instead craft stories that foster a greater understanding and empathy of sharks?

Clém (23:41)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely this is something that has to be re-thinked, I think, in the AGR. Because Sharks are definitely not the monsters we say they are. are. As well, we are not to fall in the other extreme. Sharks are not pets. They are wild predators. So, definitely It's not okay to go and cuddle them and everything. This can be actually dangerous, you know? Because you are disturbing them.

So I think we have to have an approach which is more scientific and maybe more realistic about what they have. They are wild animals and so this is super important, this is super interesting to explain really what they are and maybe put a little less of romance but they are so interesting by themselves that there is nothing to add, you know.

Jess Coldrey (25:00)

So on the scale from monsters to best friend and giving them a hug, there's some sort of space of just respect in between. Is that right?

Clém (25:09)

Exactly.

Exactly that.

Jess Coldrey (25:13)

Hmm. Well, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. Often when we we jump to, you know, both extreme ends of an interpretation of something we're really correct. It's often something in between. And I really enjoy the approach that you took for your research for your dissertation for your PhD in how you didn't just take a strong perspective from one discipline, but instead you decided to combine ecology, economics,

⁓ socio-anthropology to understand how we can improve shark conservation. And I'm curious why it was important to you to take such a multidisciplinary, multifaceted approach to this challenge.

Clém (25:55)

⁓ Yeah, actually I had to because for one really simple reason. We know actually that shark populations are strongly declining. This is something terrible because there is one third of the shark species which are currently threatened by extinction. We know that there is plenty of protection programs all around the world but

In comparison to other animals like turtles, marine mammals or whatever, the sharks represent the programs which are the less followed or which give the less results because of the perception people have for sharks and because of the relationships between sea users and the sharks. And so this is a social problem.

And so I was really inspired by Polynesian culture because it's now more than eight years that I live in French Polynesia and this was something which was so surprising for me because in comparison to Western culture, here in French Polynesia, sharks, they are seen as totemic animals. So for example, you have strong families which are represented by a shark.

It's a symbol of power, it's a very positive thing actually. And as well, like in some local myths, you have the sharks which are representing the link between the living and the death, and maybe sharks can carry the spirit of your ancestors, so they have to be protected. And so it's so interesting to see the difference of perception between...

different cultures of this animal which can be from very positive to very negative and so I suspect that using the knowledge of the ancient people in this kind of civilization can be very interesting as well to rethink shark conservation. And then why economics? Because like economics and ecology are often completely opposites in the mind of a lot of people.

But for sharks, absolutely not, because unfortunately we live in the world we are living in. so the thing is that shark fin costs $500 per kilogram in average. So the shark fin market is something which is really the cause of why sharks are threatened today.

The only thing which can have the same amount of money or even more is eco-tourism. Because there is more and more people wanting to travel, to spend their money and to spend their time to see sharks through the scuba diving industry, technical diving and all these kinds of activities. actually, this may increase the incomes that the one...

to fisheries, you know, and so maybe a living shark is more interesting than a dead shark. And for some people, unfortunately, this argument is the best to give. And so this argument is actually something really important for shark conservation, and this is something scientists have to take to the next

Jess Coldrey (29:27)

Yeah, it definitely sounds like it makes a lot of sense, more interesting alive than dead, but it is quite a brutal way to put it, isn't it?

Clém (29:30)

Thank

Exactly.

Jess Coldrey (29:37)

And I suppose from Western perspectives, like you were mentioning, we often study animals as data points. But what I really like about your work is it also explores how we project meaning onto them through our own cultural lenses, are different comparing, say, ⁓ European perspectives to a culture like in Polynesia, where sharks are seen. ⁓

more as guardians rather than monsters. And I am sure that living in a place with such a rich cultural view formed by thousands of years living by the ocean, living by sharks has been very influential for your own perspective.

Clém (30:19)

Yes, definitely. you know, there is something which was really actually terrifying me is that, you know, Polynesian culture, for instance, but it's as well the case of other ocean and cultures, are super strong and are super positive according to the marine resource management in general, not on the shelf. And they have not to externalize this idea.

And unfortunately, sometimes this is something happening and even in the perception of some local fishermen or something like that, we observe so much gap between what should have been observed according to the local culture and what is actually the case that we have to take care as well about the westernization of this culture which had actually the good way to think at the beginning.

Jess Coldrey (31:18)

Yeah, absolutely, it makes a lot of sense. And something I was really fascinated to learn about French Polynesia is that it declared all of its waters as a shark sanctuary in 2006. And apparently the size of that shark sanctuary is almost two thirds the size of Australia. And across that whole area, the killing of sharks is banned. that was almost two decades ago now. So how is the shark population doing in French Polynesia?

Clém (31:47)

So actually, a shark sanctuary is to my mind one of the best decisions that French Polynesia took for shark conservation because such a wide territory, as you said, is like the size of Europe, you know? And shark protection is completely installed. Like all the species are currently under protection. There is no exception. And ⁓ the thing is that...

Even if something may happen, some illegal fishing or stuff like that, there is punishment if the people are caught. And there is actually a law against that. this is something which is really written. And that, I suspect, for the future we have to communicate more about because it may inspire other countries because implementing shark sanctuaries or marine mammal sanctuaries.

This is something really interesting ⁓ for biodiversity but as well for ecotourism and stuff like this. And the results in French Polynesia according to the study ⁓ we did as well using ecotourism because it was through the Citizen Science Initiative. We observed that between 2011 and now the abundance of sharks in French Polynesia increased.

And as well there is a really interesting article of McNeil which shows that all over the world, places where sharks are protected through marine protected areas, through shark sanctuaries, ⁓ display actually higher abundance and diversity of this animal. So this is actually something which is working and so it's a really interesting measure.

Jess Coldrey (33:41)

It's fantastic to hear. It's a great example for other countries and I suppose imagining this, you know, protective circle around the French Polynesian waters where we've got this, you know, edge where the law extends to where sharks can be protected through the same tree. I can't help but thinking that sharks don't know where these boundaries are. ⁓ A reef shark or a tiger shark might roam from Tahitian waters into the high seas or into the zone of another nation. So

How critical is international cooperation for the future of shark conservation?

Clém (34:17)

This is actually something we want to work on more. Particularly with my team, because we work on long-term follow of the animals, thanks to like acoustic geometry, which is something quite interesting for that, because when you put a tag in the shark, it's for seven years. So it's a lot of following of the sharks during extended periods. So we have to...

continue our collaboration between different countries with different labs. so, yeah, this is something actually in progress. Among all the French Polynesia territory, thanks to the support of our Fiat Global and IT Private Expedition, had the opportunity to use opportunistic boats to go in really remote areas and to put some receivers. And we...

to explore the longest road of the tiger shark in Fred's Polynesia, which was 900 kilometers. So this is already something really interesting and this road is taken every year by the same shark, so I think he likes to do that every time. And so yeah, we are working more and more on things. are...

exploring some stuff ⁓ on the connectivity on the animal which are really critical because if we know where they are passing we can protect this area more than others because you know, so wide territory is super complicated to monitor and so in order to implement protection we have to identify important shark areas so where they are crossing, they are resting, where they are feeding

And so this is a work which is well currently in progress, but this is something which is long. This is something where we have to find funding because obviously tags and receivers and stuff like that is not free. And this is one of the main problems in science, it's like the cost of all this equipment. So we have plenty of ideas but not plenty of money, but we continue step by step thanks to a nice collaborative work.

Jess Coldrey (36:35)

It's a great cause. And I suppose this spatial behavior of sharks will change in response to the ecotourism that you mentioned and response to, you know, settlements as well. Something that you've mentioned a few times so far during the podcast is the controversial practice of feeding sharks to attract them for tourists. And I'd love to hear from you. Why is this such an ethically complicated issue?

Clém (36:37)

yeah.

Jess Coldrey (37:04)

And what solutions do you see?

Clém (37:07)

And so actually it's something which is really complicated, the shark provisioning. So I'm gonna answer by completely neutral answer, scientific answer, because I'm not here to give my point of view, but maybe more giving what science say about shark provisioning. Shark provisioning can be really a problem if there is no strict code of conduct, obviously, because if you feed shark...

completely randomly, it can be dangerous, it can be harmful for shark ecology. This is something which is clear. If you follow strict code of conducts, if you, for example, provision some species which are highly migratory, like tiger sharks, like bull sharks, there is less impact. So finally, there is differential impacts depending on the practices and between the species.

So the impacts cannot be comparable between the different animals. So this is the first very complicated thing. So if you want to implement shark provisioning practices in your country or in some place, you have to follow very strict code of conduct for human safety and as well monitoring of the shark population in order to see that if they, for example, keep their natural migration pattern, et cetera, et cetera.

But in some places it has been possible. For example, now it's completely forbidden in French Polynesia. But before it was some shark provisioning. And on Tiger Shark we didn't observe any negative impacts on the site fidelity index in an area and on the movement patterns. So this is something encouraging but this is not true for all species. Secondly...

Shark provisioning in some places may act as a conservation measure. For example, where sharks are highly fished, we have not to forget that ⁓ fisheries is the main threat for sharks. Sharks, they are lazy animals, so they go at the more easy thing. So most of the time it's depredation of fisheries. And so they get caught and they die.

And so the main thing to extract the shark from the fishery may be to implement a shark provisioning spot. In French Polynesia, there is absolutely no sense to do that because shark fishing is polyvite. So this is something that allows French Polynesia to really have a completely neutral approach of ecotourism with sharks, particularly as well because we are lucky enough to have a...

species phenomenon, it's like a hole in the reef between the lagoon and the ocean. And because of the strong currents in this area, we have natural aggregation of sharks. So no need to feed two observed sharks in French-Portuguese Asia. But in some places, you know, it may act as well as a conservatory tool. So this is actually a super complicated question. And I don't think it's black or white. You know, it's really dependent on the context. It's really dependent on the species.

Jess Coldrey (40:32)

So yeah, it definitely sounds like it's not a yes or no thing for whether you should feed sharks or not, but it impacts the entire social and ecological system that is in the local area for that species.

Clém (40:37)

sorry.

Jess Coldrey (40:47)

And what do you think is helping to shift the conversation about sharks from fear into that space of respect that we were talking about?

Clém (40:57)

So I just think that people have to try to go to observe the sharks because when you observe them, it actually works for me. It actually works on some of my friends, on my family, you know. Since you put a snake in the water with the shark, honestly, you change your mind. And so this is something that really has to be more educated, you know, and maybe motivate people to address that.

Of course you have to have like a trend guides and not go by yourself without knowing, it can be scary. But if you want to discover shark world, if you want to be in contact with sharks, you have to find nice ecotourism initiatives and you definitely can meet the sharks in good conditions and definitely change your perception because since you are in the water with the sharks you really discover that.

Jess Coldrey (42:00)

Yeah, it makes lot of sense that it sounds like that shark experience was something that really inspired you to start this entire career. it sounds like it could be something special for other people as well. I'd imagine if you're on your jet ski off the coast of Australia on holiday and you see a shark fin, don't jump in and make that your shark experience, but go through a trusted provider with scientists who understand the local context. Is that right?

Clém (42:06)

Thank you.

Obviously it's just like, thing is that finally the more you understand...

Jess Coldrey (42:30)

You

Clém (42:40)

fear is true for everything. the fear goes away with understanding. And the difference between the real problems that can pose shock and the perception most people have about them, it's crazy. It's just like a huge gap. And this is more huge than with all the different species I know.

It's a strong cognitive bias. And so yes, people just go and beat the shot.

Jess Coldrey (43:17)

Amazing. And I know two years ago, you actually founded your own research lab, IREMP. What are you focusing on researching in your lab?

Clém (43:29)

So, you know, after my PhD degree, I wanted to start a new adventure and to start my own research lab. after being so involved in different NGO programs and everything, I wanted as well to put in perspective the expertise that we did with my team on technical and professional diving.

because everything starts like that at the beginning and this can help to collect new types of data and very new perspectives in research because we use Rebrisa for our research. Rebrisa is diving techniques which allow you to stay more than four hours underwater. ⁓ Depending on the gas that you use, you can dive up to 100 meters and everything.

And so you may have the opportunity to study as well the vertical movement of the animals, sharks, but as well as other different animals. And so this is something we are defending in my lab. So I continue the work that I was doing on sharks through ORP and through my PhD. But as well, I want to promote the use on technical dining for research.

and how this can be important as well to answer to some crucial points about solutions on climate change, about how ⁓ ecosystems can adapt to extreme conditions and these kind of questions which are to my mind really really important.

Jess Coldrey (45:18)

Sounds like a fascinating research area. I think, especially for me, who's someone who's not an ecologist, I think it's so fascinating. You know, as humans, we navigate horizontally along the ground and you don't really think about how, you know, animals, underwater fish, sharks change levels. go, you know, deep in the ocean, they go closer to the surface and just the diversity of what

that's like at different levels in the ocean. I the concept of vertical movement is very poetic and interesting. Amazing. And I'm sure deep sea diving is such an interesting avenue for shark conservation as well. I understand you're currently open to collaborations with other researchers and other institutions interested in the similar topic.

Clém (46:10)

Yes.

Jess Coldrey (46:12)

Fantastic. So we'll include Clementine's email in the show notes for anyone who's interested in getting in touch about any future projects. So to close the episode Clementine, for our listeners who might be artists, writers, or simply ocean lovers, what would you say to inspire them? How can someone who isn't a scientist or someone who lives thousands of kilometers from the ocean

find their role in reimagining our relationship with sharks and the sea.

Clém (46:40)

Honestly, everybody can be involved in science. know, science these recent years became so like high-skilled or everything, but you know, this is not my perception of science. Actually, since you love the animal, since you have the sensibility, you can like add something which can actually attract the eye of a researcher, for instance.

We work a lot with local fishermen in French Polynesia, which are not particularly like trained in science, but they report their observations and we have so many new information that we could never have if we didn't work with the local fishermen. And so as well like the perception of an artist or ⁓ musician or whatever can be super, super.

interesting and super new and can give new perspective on our research and our understanding and perception on because I think that to create new dynamics on shark conservation everything is a question of perceptions. So more different perceptions we have, more we will be closer to what is the truth, you know, and so this is something very important

Jess Coldrey (48:07)

Fantastic! Wow! I've learned so much from this interview, Clementine. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing all of your amazing knowledge about sharks.

Clém (48:07)

Thank

Thank you so much, Jess.