From Policy to Poetry | Reimagining the Ocean through a Global Lens | Kate Noble
In this episode, Jess Coldrey speaks with Kate Noble, an ocean expert and policy specialist, about the importance of ocean advocacy, the interconnectedness of ocean ecosystems, and the role of storytelling in conservation efforts.
They discuss the significance of high seas and marine protected areas, recent developments in ocean policy, and the challenges of global plastic pollution. Kate emphasises the need for youth engagement and international collaboration in addressing ocean issues, while also highlighting the power of personal stories in inspiring action.
Takeaways
The ocean is a living entity that holds our stories.
Personal experiences with the ocean shape our advocacy.
Storytelling is crucial in conveying ocean conservation messages.
High seas cover two-thirds of the planet and require protection.
Recent treaties aim to improve governance of the high seas.
Plastic pollution is a complex issue that needs holistic solutions.
Youth voices are essential in ocean advocacy and policy.
International collaboration is vital for effective ocean governance.
Marine protected areas benefit both ecosystems and coastal communities.
There are countless untold stories in ocean conservation.
Projects, links and people mentioned
Sponsor | The Australian French Association for Innovation and Research https://www.afran.org.au/
LinkedIn
James Bradley | Australian novelist and non-fiction writer - https://www.jbradleylab.com/
Kate Wawatai | Maori ocean activist and submersible pilot - https://50.explorers.org/community/ka...
Transcript
Jess Coldrey (00:00)
Across the Pacific, coral reefs are bleaching, deep sea currents are shifting, and new global treaties are taking shape in negotiation rooms thousands of kilometres from the ocean's edge. In the middle of this change, what does it mean to speak up for the ocean, and how do we move from policy to poetry to inspire the next generation of changemakers?
we're joined by Kate Noble, an oceans expert and international leader who's worked on everything from global plastic pollution treaties to protecting underwater mountains.
In this conversation, we'll explore how science and storytelling can work together to help us listen to the ocean and act to protect it. I'm Jess Coldrey and you're listening to episode one of Art Strategy Impact, the podcast bridging disciplines to reimagine how we live, build and belong in harmony with nature. This mini series on ocean governance is generously supported by the Australian French Association for Innovation and Research. A big welcome to Kate Noble.
As an environmental and human rights policy specialist, Kate is focused on ocean protection. Currently the senior manager oceans policy at the World Wildlife Fund Australia, Kate has extensive expertise working with high profile nonprofits in Europe, Oceania, Africa and the Middle East. Kate has also worked in politics and academia. She received a master's of international relations, studied jointly at Griffith University in Australia and Sciences Po.
which is France's leading university in the social sciences. Passionate about ocean conservation, Kate describes herself as outdoorsy and always curious. Welcome to the podcast, Kate.
Kate Noble (01:47)
Hi Jess, thank you so much for having me.
Jess Coldrey (01:50)
So to introduce yourself, could you please share with us a memory or experience that first sparked your love for the ocean?
Kate Noble (01:59)
look this is a little unconventional but probably my strongest memory of the ocean ⁓ is being dumped by a wave. ⁓ We lived not too far from the ocean but not super close and I think that experience is quite terrifying ⁓ if you've ever been through it. ⁓ You lose your sense of orientation, you don't know which way is up and which way is down and I think as a kid you are
potentially even a little frightened of coming out of it in one piece. So, you know, I think that taught me we are afraid of the ocean, but we're also in awe of the ocean. And so many Australians and people right across the Pacific have a very deep kind of
love of the ocean. It's part of who we are and the way we live and it's kind of a formative experience I guess. We all think about the ocean very fondly ⁓ but to kind of experience its kind of awe and power is something that has stuck with me since then.
Jess Coldrey (03:08)
Wow, that's so interesting. I can definitely relate to that. Perhaps not being dumped by a wave, but always being scared of this kind of mystical, you're monster in the deep end of the ocean kind of feeling and this like respect and awe for the immensity of the power that the ocean has. And obviously the ocean is still a really big part of your life. Would you say that respect and that kind of emotional connection you have to the ocean influences the work you do today?
Kate Noble (03:37)
Yeah!
Absolutely. And I mean, you know, the contrast to being dumped by a wave is the sense of kind of peace and ⁓ oneness that you get from being in the ocean when it is calm and when it is glassy and when it is clear. And that sense of unparalleled awe that you get when you're snorkeling or diving and you're in another world and everything else disappears. And these are the kind of, you know, these are the experiences that we so often draw off to talk about how much.
you know our positive relationship with the ocean ⁓ and absolutely you know I do what I do because I care very deeply about ⁓ the ocean and everything within it for so many reasons you know in terms of what it practically the role it serves kind of ecologically ⁓ in terms of regulating climate and and being you know a place that is is very special to so many people but also supports so many
livelihoods around the world.
Jess Coldrey (04:40)
That's beautiful Kate, thank you. It plays such a huge role.
And now I have a question, it's probably another one you have been asked before, but who is the ocean? Do you feel that the ocean has perhaps some sort of personality, a voice, a feeling of equilibrium which is felt or not felt in different moments? How do you picture the kind of heart of the ocean?
Kate Noble (05:05)
something I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I guess from two perspectives that are worth sharing. One is the view that is held in the very deep-seated belief by so many indigenous cultures that the ocean is a living breathing entity and that it holds history and that it holds our ancestors and I think you know that can seem ⁓
like quite an unconventional idea to many people who see the ocean as something that you travel across and something that you swim in and something that you fish from but
When you kind of think about the ocean in the sense of deep time and, ⁓ and the history of evolution, it is actually not so far-fetched at all. We all came from the ocean. And if you cast, know, if you consider time in a much broader kind of long-term context, we all did come from the ocean. We all are related to everything that's in the ocean. And it's a very different way of kind of perceiving what the ocean is. I think the other thing I've been thinking about a lot is, ⁓
Is there is the role that sea mounts play ⁓ in the way the ocean kind of functions and and how Ecosystems are supported within the ocean and they you know, typically in the deep ocean ⁓ mountains that rise up off the seafloor and a biodiversity hotspots and stepping stones and really important habitats for so many migratory species but also cold water, it's corals that are very delicate and very
vulnerable to threats and grow over hundreds and hundreds of years. So you know from those two perspectives actually it's very difficult to see the ocean as anything other than this enormous expansive you know significantly unknown living kind of breathing entity.
Jess Coldrey (07:08)
Amazing. And I love that idea of the breath of the ocean. How would you describe how the ocean breathes?
Kate Noble (07:17)
I think the sound of waves and the whole visual element of how waves work, I think when we sit and we watch those rather than being in them and when we listen to them, it very much has the rhythm of a breath, absolutely. And you know, it comes as no surprise really why so many people love the idea and love the practice of going to sleep listening to the ocean.
Jess Coldrey (07:43)
That's very true. hadn't thought about it like that. And this podcast, it also speaks to creatives. So writers, artists, storytellers, as they're very strong messengers of science and policy, as you know, I know you've worked with cold facts, you've worked with big agreements, but if you were to personify the ocean in a way that inspires people to rethink how they relate to the ocean, how might you finish the sentence? The ocean is not just water, it's...
Kate Noble (08:14)
I think the ocean is all of our stories and the ocean holds all of our stories. ⁓ It holds all of our stories, you know, since the beginning of time, but it also holds very specific stories that are really close to so many people. ⁓ Yeah, I think that's how I'd finish that sentence.
Jess Coldrey (08:33)
Fantastic, thank you. And
I know as well as your work in the policy space, you've also worked extensively with journalists, screenwriters and producers across the Middle East, across Africa and Asia as well. And I'd love to hear a bit more about what did this entail and what role you think storytelling has in the ocean space.
Kate Noble (08:56)
Yeah, that's a great question. So ⁓ my work with a lot of creatives and journalists and producers ⁓ was primarily around social and governance and human rights issues rather than environmental issues. But I had the great privilege to work with BBC Media Action, which is the international development arm of the BBC for ⁓ many years and, ⁓ you know, partnered with some
incredible local creatives ⁓ from across the Middle East, ⁓ Africa and Asia. I think, you know, the project that kind of I hold dearest to my heart was called Shankaboot. It was a web series produced with partners in Lebanon and it was the very first web series that was ever produced in Arabic. It also had a cast of very young unknown actors, non-professionals ⁓ who did
incredible job of bringing this story to life. It was designed to kind of reflect the realities and the lives of young Lebanese people, whereas you know most of the media content that they consumed or had access to was very high production values, you know very dramatic kind of soap opera style. So this was gritty, it was real, it was you know it was hard and it was fantastic you know partly because Beirut's just incredible city and partly because this young cast of non-professionals.
working with professional producers and screenwriters just ⁓ came together incredibly well. ⁓ But in terms of the role of stories in ocean conservation, look I think I said this before I think everything you know everything is stories but
what becomes very powerful is when you can choose the stories that resonate with people and yet tell a really important kind of conservation ⁓ narrative or story or piece of information. And when you can do that in a way that ⁓ helps bring all of this to life and kind of helps bring it back to people's kind of experience and perception of the ocean, I think that's when storytelling in ocean conservation has
has been most powerful for me.
Jess Coldrey (11:19)
Absolutely, that's amazing and it's incredible that you've been able to be involved in these projects across so many continents as well. Do you find that there are often similarities across the different places you've worked and how people talk about the ocean?
Kate Noble (11:33)
Look, I think the ocean is similar things to many people and it's different things to many people. ⁓ You know, coming from Australia and having worked so closely with many people across the Pacific. ⁓
our identities are very, very closely intertwined with the ocean and the ecosystems within it and the creatures within it. ⁓ But yeah, you see different variations in many countries across the world. I think, you know, one piece of amazing storytelling that brought this to life in terms of some of the commonalities and the differences between how cultures and countries ⁓ see and live with and work with the ocean was David Attenborough's film Ocean.
an incredible piece of work and he drew on the stories from I think it was four people from four different countries around the world, ⁓ know, a fisherman in Africa, an ocean conservation worker from Hawaii, ⁓ a diver from Scotland and one more who I have, a US fisherman as well and you know, they told their stories in a really powerful way and they all had this abiding kind
of connection with the ocean but it it played a slightly different role in each of their lives.
Jess Coldrey (12:54)
Fantastic, thank you.
So now to jump a little bit more into your policy work, Listeners may have already heard terms like high seas or marine protected areas, but might not always understand exactly what these refer to. So let's unpack some of the ocean terminology a little bit and take a quick dive into some recent policy developments as well. So let's start with high seas. What are they and why are they so important to protect? Can you us a picture, please?
Kate Noble (13:24)
Yes, absolutely. So under the United Nations Law of the Sea Convention, ⁓ that established this kind of formalized ⁓ this notion of territorial or national waters. So around every single country that has a coastline, they have a strip of water, it's and it extends out to 200 nautical miles, which they have jurisdiction over. So if you can imagine every country with that strip around it of their national waters. Now, everything that is
in those strips is referred to as international waters or the high seas. They cover around two-thirds of the planet so a lot.
And they are, you know, they're quite different to coastal waters. So you see in coastal waters ⁓ a lot of kind of shallow water, it's reefs ⁓ in kind of the deep, deep ocean. You're talking about, you know, very significant depths and you're talking about, you know, occasionally sea mounts and ridges in terms of the features. yeah, legally we talk about national waters and we talk about international waters. International waters are everything that are not that that are
does not have jurisdiction over.
Jess Coldrey (14:38)
And how does the marine life and the kind of composition of the ocean change when you go from that coastal environment out into the deep sea areas in international waters?
Kate Noble (14:49)
Well, I
In coastal areas what we see is kind of you know really significant kind of levels of biodiversity and that's why it's important ⁓ for a significant amount of that to be protected. That is where a lot of marine life resides, that's where a lot of tropical ⁓ coral reefs for example are ⁓ and where a lot of sort of livelihoods sit and exist. In the deep ocean you know you have quite a kind of you know vast swathes of deep ocean that
can have kind of quite ⁓ a barren looking sea floor. ⁓ You know you have these kind of deep ocean features that that obviously most of them originated ⁓ or some of them have been previously on land and have subsided so you can imagine the kind of features that you see on land in terms of mountain ranges and mountains and you know valleys and ridges and rises that sit below the ocean surface but quite far down.
Jess Coldrey (15:48)
Amazing. And since these seem to be areas that aren't under the jurisdiction of one country in particular, does that make conservation difficult?
Kate Noble (16:00)
Yes, it does. So up until very recently, or in fact even now, ⁓ you know, there has been this notion that the high seas, really the wild west when it kind of comes to ocean governance. ⁓ Under the UN law of the sea, there are regional fisheries management organizations which have to varying extents. ⁓
attempted to kind of manage ⁓ biodiversity in terms of fishing within the areas that they manage but there's really been no overarching governance framework that has changed very recently with agreement by UN member states or countries.
on the high seas biodiversity treaty, is also known as the BB &J agreement. That hasn't come into force yet, but the great news is it has now secured a sufficient number of countries becoming a member of that treaty regime, which means it will come into force next year. That is a game changer. It will set out the framework for creating marine protected areas on the high seas and also a requirement for environmental impact assessments to be conducted for
certain activities on the high seas. So yes, it has been really difficult up until now. ⁓ We're facing kind of a new governance framework that will make a huge difference over the coming years.
Jess Coldrey (17:25)
Such fantastic news and I believe over 60 countries have signed on to that BBNJ treaty now, is that right?
Kate Noble (17:33)
That's right, and we'd love to get it ⁓ almost kind of to universal ratification, which means we're really hoping that most countries in the world, if not all, can become party to that agreement.
Jess Coldrey (17:47)
So if a marine protected area is created through international cooperation in these treaties, what happens when there's a country who hasn't signed the agreement?
Kate Noble (17:57)
That's a really good question. So a lot of the detail ⁓ is yet to be developed while we have the of the treaty framework. There will need to be further work at the conferences of the parties. We've all heard about climate cops. There will be high seas biodiversity cops as well.
But look, we're really hoping for universal ratification of this treaty. And I think that very rapid, a number of countries that have come on board just in a very short amount of time, international agreements can be very slow, but that is an excellent sign. So we're hoping, you know, that that can potentially be at least doubled over the next couple of years, which will mean that most countries would be party to that.
Jess Coldrey (18:42)
Fantastic and obviously that isn't in action yet but what changes could we imagine seeing to industry as a result of marine protected areas?
Kate Noble (18:51)
Industry will be as I guess it may be an interesting parallel is when we look at in national waters, a marine protected area sets out certain rules and requirements about how industries can operate or the limitations on what they can do in those marine protected areas. The idea is that we will have the same but we will have it on global scale. So, you know, all of this will be sort of subject to
by the parties in terms of exactly what levels of protection are assigned to different marine protected areas and those are decisions that countries have been making for many years in their own national waters so there is this global standard around levels of protection that has been established by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature so they assign
levels to marine protected areas and then within that they specify you know what is compatible with those levels of protection. We can probably expect to see a similar type of mechanism applied.
Jess Coldrey (19:56)
I see. Okay. And I imagine perhaps transportation, fishing, mining, there might be some changes to those sectors in terms of perhaps maybe where routes go or where ⁓ certain levels of fishing are allowed in certain ways of fishing. Is that something that's already covered in ocean policy or something that might be fleshed out further in this treaty?
Kate Noble (20:25)
Yeah, so I mean, we have a lot of experience to draw on collectively internationally ⁓ because marine protected areas have been around for a long time in ⁓ national waters. So looking at, you know, what the conditions are for to allow kind of marine habitats to really thrive ⁓ and recover. ⁓
you know, that will involve changes. Absolutely. We know from many decades of science that the most effective marine protected areas are highly protected or sometimes referred to as marine sanctuaries. And that means you cannot take that referred to as no take, you cannot take or extract any resources from those particular areas. And they tend to be really high biodiversity, really highly important areas that provide critical habitat, for example, to certain species.
or critical areas for feeding or breeding or mating or socializing for migratory species. And without those areas, know, intact and in good health, ⁓ those species ⁓ can really be under significant threat. So we've got a huge amount of science and a huge amount of experience collectively to draw on that can be brought to bear on how we do this in international waters.
Jess Coldrey (21:45)
Would it be correct that these marine sanctuary type areas aren't just valuable in and of themselves but also affect the broader ecosystems outside of those borders?
Kate Noble (21:57)
Yeah, absolutely. There's a good amount of evidence and it was beautifully illustrated graphically ⁓ in David Attenborough's film, what is referred to as the spillover effect. ⁓ Really brought to life as well by this American fisherman who had seen it firsthand, you know, he and other fishers had been very skeptical when levels of lobsters, you know, basically bottomed out ⁓ and a marine protected area was created. ⁓ They saw over time.
a significant significant increase in the abundance of lobsters outside of the marine protected area where they were able to fish. Now this is backed up by you know a significant amount of scientific evidence as well so the spillover spillover effect is absolutely real ⁓ and you know I think
When you compare that to protected areas on land, it is what is unique about a marine protected area. Protected areas on land protect the species and the habitats within those kind of designated areas on a map. But when you do that in the ocean, it has significant effects ⁓ outside of the actual protected area. ⁓ So it not only kind of expands like in terms of you could almost see it as ripples, but then also for the migratory species that are traveling thousands and thousands
of kilometres but potentially using those protected areas as a really important part of their life cycle.
Jess Coldrey (23:25)
That really goes to show doesn't it when we look after the ocean, the ocean can continue to provide for us and create more positive outcomes for coastal communities.
Kate Noble (23:35)
Yeah, that's exactly right. It really does. And sometimes it's as simple as leaving the ocean alone. You know, sometimes it needs a bit of a different intervention and sometimes it needs really kind of proactive intervention, but sometimes the ocean just needs to be left alone.
Jess Coldrey (23:51)
and finding that equilibrium, suppose, allowing it to reset and use those natural processes to reinstate the balance of ecosystems.
Kate Noble (24:02)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jess Coldrey (24:04)
Great. So let's jump on to another area of policy. I know plastic is an area that you're very passionate about. So what's the latest on the global plastic pollution treaty?
Kate Noble (24:17)
Well, that has been a really challenging process. We always knew going into that, that it would be a challenging process. It has proven us all right. You know, the what's called the Intergovernmental Negotiating Committee that was set itself the task and UN member states agreed that this was, you know, there was a clear need for such an ⁓ agreement. They gave themselves a deadline of, think it was initially two and a half years, which was
then subsequently extended a little to to land that treaty text. ⁓ Look unfortunately that was a really protracted negotiation that was was very difficult and got to a point where ⁓ there was a significant amount of agreement on some elements of the treaty but
some real fracture lines around the measures that would have made the most difference to plastic pollution. ⁓
some of those measures being, you know, bans and phase outs of specific products, including the most polluting products like single use plastic products, ⁓ bans or phase outs on certain types of very harmful chemicals for which there is a very strong evidence base that they cause harm to both humans, ecosystems, ⁓ and other species as well. ⁓
Some of the other measures were around the levels of production ⁓ and whether limitations could be set on those levels of production and if so how to do that. So there was such significant disagreement on some of those really really important measures that the end of that agreed negotiating time was reached with no agreement on a treaty text. Things are hanging in the balance at the moment so there will be another negotiating session at some point in time we don't know when. ⁓
you know to be perfectly honest ⁓ it is difficult to see a pathway towards a treaty text being agreed given what the last three years has delivered. There's a lot of discussion around what some alternative pathways might look like and whether some of them more ambitious countries within that process because there are a significant number of countries that really want to see ⁓ this addressed effectively can do that via alternative means.
Jess Coldrey (26:47)
It sounds like ⁓ a suitably systematic scope in that it's not just looking at plastic as waste, but plastic as a designed good, a manufactured good, a consumer product, all the way through the value chain of plastic, which I think is really interesting. Often we think of plastic as just rubbish, but I suppose there are whole industries built around the use of plastic.
Kate Noble (27:11)
Yeah, absolutely. And still, you know, the vast majority of plastic that we produce is derived from fossil fuels. So ⁓ it is a problem that needs to be addressed holistically, ⁓ right from the time that you dig up those fossil fuels and use them to produce plastics ⁓ right through to the end of their life. So it is absolutely not an issue of littering and rubbish and recycling. It is absolutely an issue of how we
put plastic into our economy and how we responsibly manage it and how much of that that we do.
Jess Coldrey (27:45)
Absolutely. And I suppose perhaps some everyday people might think that when they say, eat an ice cream and they have a wrapper, they put it in the bin, it might go to a landfill, it might be incinerated. But something we often don't have the picture of is how plastic is a globally traded and exported good. No one really wants it. I know back maybe five, six, seven years ago now, China implemented their national sword policy that meant Australia
couldn't continue sending plastic waste to China and we had to start finding other options and trying to build up infrastructure to deal with that ourselves. So I suppose it's more than just a wrapper blowing into the ocean. It's this hugely significant issue in unwanted waste that's probably landing more on the ocean than anywhere else.
Kate Noble (28:37)
Yeah, 100%. I mean, look, no country, no company wants this stuff. Once it's been used, no one wants particularly soft plastics. They're a particularly big problem. But yeah, you're absolutely right, Jess.
Jess Coldrey (28:52)
What gives you hope when you're dealing with
these challenges? I know obviously it has such a huge impact on marine life and the ocean. It sounds like it's been very challenging to reach a legally binding agreement on this. So is it those ambitious countries that are still setting their intentions high that are giving you optimism in this challenge? Or what are you trying to focus on to help make things feel doable?
Kate Noble (29:19)
Look, I think it's the people rather than the governments that have dedicated their lives and their work and their efforts to understanding what these problems are and what the solutions that we already have at hand are to address them. I think it's that kind of level of determination. think it's a bit of a cliche, but I think it's the idea that young people deserve to be
passed on, you know, ecosystems and environments that are in a better shape than what we ⁓ inherited. look, I think it's all of that. It's that level of kind of commitment and determination to ⁓ tackle these problems. ⁓ And it's all of the work that's gone into identifying how we can do that. So there is so much that we already know, there is so much that we can already do. ⁓ This amazing ⁓ oceanographer, Sylvia Earle, sort of talks about
now as being this really sweet spot in time where we know more than we ever have about you know ocean ecosystems and the threats that they face but we also have at our disposal more tools and more resources to to deal with them and to solve many of those problems.
Jess Coldrey (30:38)
That's a beautiful reminder. And I suppose it also reflects the idea that it's not just international cooperation that matters in these challenges. It's also nationally, regionally, locally, your community and your person what you can do. And just because one of those stages is stalling doesn't mean that all the other levels can't do their part at the same time.
Kate Noble (31:03)
Yeah, that's absolutely right. mean, ideally we have them all working together like a well-synchronized machine. But yes, sometimes certain kind of parts of society will naturally kind of be ahead of others. You know, there's a huge amount of power ⁓ in what people, you know, the decisions that people make and the kind of the markets that they help to shape.
Jess Coldrey (31:25)
Fantastic. So the next area I'd like to draw on Kate is some of your cross-cultural expertise and perspectives having worked and studied internationally. And I know you studied international relations partly in France. You've worked across many regions globally. And I was wondering how has all that international experience shaped your perspective on ocean diplomacy?
Kate Noble (31:51)
What a great question.
I mean, I think it's really important to kind of step outside of your own lived experience and your own culture and understand how other people kind of perceive problems and challenges and opportunities. And I think the same can be said for, you know, the way we perceive and the amount of kind of will and intent that we have around dealing with some of the major threats to the ocean.
You know, there's a scientific evidence base around what those threats are and around ⁓ and what can be done about them. But people have very different kind of ideas of, you know, the extent to which they're a threat, the extent to which they're a problem, the extent to which we should be using our time and effort and money to solve those problems. So I think, you know, fundamentally ⁓ understanding different perspectives and different, you know, ways of using and being with and needing and relying on the ocean. ⁓
is a really important way, ⁓ a really important part of working out how we collectively share and ⁓ govern our oceans.
Jess Coldrey (33:05)
Beautiful. And reflecting on your time studying in France, did you find that that added a richness to your perspective as well?
Kate Noble (33:13)
It added a lot of fun to my perspective. ⁓ Yeah, look, it was really interesting. Even just being in another education system, I think is a really great experience. ⁓
sometimes you're quite surprised by you know the kind of the nuances and the differences between how people approach education. I think the French education system expects a lot of its students and and that was yeah that was a really interesting experience to have. It's always like fascinating studying and spending time in other countries and kind of being you know immersing yourself in that culture rather than just kind of visiting or traveling through.
Jess Coldrey (33:54)
Absolutely, I agree. And why is international collaboration so critical in ocean conservation? What would happen, for example, if there were no treaties and countries all acted in isolation? How would that be different?
Kate Noble (34:09)
think it'd be pretty disastrous. All you need to do is look at a globe or look at a map of the world to kind of see. It's so visual we don't need a published paper to tell us how interconnected oceans are and everything within it. They really don't know any borders so the arbitrary lines that we put on maps are not respected or completely unknown to the species that are traveling through ocean ecosystems.
of cooperation ⁓ and kind of a shared kind of value and commitment around how we use and value and protect our oceans and ocean ecosystems is incredibly important.
Jess Coldrey (34:52)
And I imagine while ⁓ countries can inspire each other and learn from each other in different approaches, lot of ecosystems are probably quite different in some ways to other countries, or other countries kind of bubbles, as you put it before.
Kate Noble (35:09)
Yeah, absolutely. This is true. Yeah. So cold water, it's corals, very different to tropical corals. Deep ocean ecosystems, quite different to, you know, to shallow water, it's ecosystems. ⁓ Yes, there are differences. Also a lot of commonalities, particularly when it comes to things like migratory species, seabirds, whales, dolphins, sharks, you know, they, they travel through all of these areas and have different needs from all of these areas. But look, that
of comes back to that interconnectedness between all of this. ⁓ Yes there are differences and variations, threats are different in different places as well ⁓ and understanding how all of these kind of systems work together is really important.
Jess Coldrey (35:55)
Would you say because of these different ecosystems and different threats bespoke policies need to be designed for separate areas or do you think that the instruments that governments use to help protect these areas are relatively transferable across different types of reefs for example?
Kate Noble (36:15)
Yeah, it absolutely depends. So you're right in one sense in terms of understanding some of the threats to, you know, specific places and specific species. Sometimes there is, you know, always a role for that highly specialized knowledge and understanding exactly what happens on this seam and compared to this seam on, for example. ⁓
However, there are some tools that we know and are proven to work regardless of where you put them. And one of those is a highly protected marine area or a marine sanctuary. So it's a bit of both.
Jess Coldrey (36:50)
Thank you.
Fantastic. Good to know. I also know you've spent a bit of time ⁓ working on policies that have impacted the Pacific area. Have you seen Pacific nations, particularly Pacific youth and First Nation leaders, reshaping global ocean governance?
Kate Noble (37:09)
Yeah, absolutely. think particularly in the last, you know... ⁓
10 years where we've seen some really major leaps forward ⁓ or significant kind of agreements. The high seas biodiversity treaty being one, the plastic pollution treaty notwithstanding you know where that's at right now, ⁓ climate change negotiations we have consistently seen ⁓ Pacific leaders and particularly ⁓ young Pacific advocates really being
you know, I guess what could be called a moral compass in many of these negotiations, bringing their lived experience.
bringing their kind of reliance on ⁓ healthy oceans ⁓ and a climate that we can all comfortably live in, ⁓ bringing those to those kind of international fora has been really powerful and also really effective in terms of landing some agreements around really important elements of the high seas biodiversity treaty, for example.
Jess Coldrey (38:19)
That's fantastic. And I wanted to zoom in on something you mentioned as well, the young leaders. And from my perspective, I think it seems that young voices are having a growing space on the international stage and negotiations and conferences. Is that something you've noticed as well in recent years?
Kate Noble (38:37)
I think you're right and I think that is absolutely you know the right thing to happen. ⁓ You know these kind of conversations and discussions should not be kind of you know closed and and only available to to people in
positions of power. They should be open to people who have relevant lived experience and they should be open to young people who are increasingly going to be dealing with these kind of challenges and solutions.
Jess Coldrey (39:10)
Absolutely, I agree. And does anyone specific spring to mind that you've heard speak at one of these events or any Pacific leaders, Pacific youth that have said something that has stuck with you?
Kate Noble (39:26)
⁓ look there are so many to choose from it would be really really difficult to pick one there are some amazing voices coming out of the Cook Islands particularly strong on issues like deep sea mining the same from Tonga look I think we've consistently seen kind of you know reef advocates ⁓ and kind of
Jess Coldrey (39:32)
with it.
Kate Noble (39:52)
ocean advocates from from all over the Pacific. ⁓ And you know that kind of pool of young advocates continues to grow year on year as well, which is fantastic to see.
Jess Coldrey (40:05)
That's great to hear. Now to jump to our final few questions. I'm curious, what would you say to young creatives or activists listening who want to play a role in ocean protection but might not be scientists or policy experts yet?
Kate Noble (40:23)
Exactly and you know what so many people who do this become science and policy experts. A great example of that is James Bradley an Australian novelist who has written many works of fiction who decided to write a book that was subsequently called Deep Water. It's a fantastic read and he
spent a very very long time interviewing many many people and really talked to so many scientists and activists that you know his knowledge you know i would say is has grown significantly throughout that process so i think look it's
there are so many stories as we talked about before there are so many stories in the ocean and it really is one of their kind of underexplored and and in some places unexplored frontier. ⁓
that you find a story and then you dive really deep and you will find people that know a lot and you will find people who can talk about what we don't know as well. yeah, we do not have a shortage of ocean stories. There are so many to tap into.
Jess Coldrey (41:35)
So it sounds like starting to share your voice and playing a role in oceans can quickly snowball into a career passion that places you in perhaps a unique perspective on the center stage and ocean discussion.
Kate Noble (41:54)
Yeah, absolutely. And weaving, know, one of the amazing things that James Bradley's work does is he weaves in history and philosophy into those discussions as well. yeah, there's a rich, untapped vein in Ocean Stories for sure.
Jess Coldrey (42:09)
Amazing. And we're sharing this podcast with audiences in November, 2025. I know a lot of the work you've been driving recently has been through the World Wildlife Fund. Is there anything in particular that WWF has published recently that would be a great starting point for anyone listening who'd like to learn more about ocean policy?
Kate Noble (42:31)
that is an excellent question. Every couple of years ⁓ we publish, well, every year we publish the Living Planet Report ⁓ and occasionally we publish a Living Blue Planet Report. So that's a fantastic starting point. ⁓ I think the work that we've been doing around seamount protection within the International Union for the Conservation of Nature is also another great starting point and the UN ⁓ Ocean Assessment as well. ⁓ Yeah, Luke, you start with those.
you get a great grounding.
Jess Coldrey (43:03)
Fantastic, thank you. And Kate, is there anything else you'd like to add or leave with our audience today?
Kate Noble (43:11)
Look, I did have one further thought around kind of, you know, amazing, inspiring ⁓ young ocean leaders from the Oceania region. We were lucky enough to have ⁓ a submariner called Kate Wawate speak at a research symposium that we held this year. Kate is an amazing ⁓ young woman, ⁓ Maori ⁓ woman who was previously an infantry commander in the
and is now one of the deepest diving submersible pilots in the world. Also a great ocean activist. So yeah look there is there are so many people out there and I would just be fantastic to see all of us kind of knowing a little bit more about those stories and getting a little bit more involved.
Jess Coldrey (44:01)
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Kate. It's been inspiring to hear about your work and a practical sense as well as your insight into oceans, into culture and your poetic takes on who the ocean is and what it means. For everyone listening today in the episode notes we'll include the publications that Kate mentioned as well as a link
some of the leaders that she's talked about in her responses.
So thank you so much for joining us today, Kate. We really appreciate it. And we're excited to see your work continue and the impacts grow and grow over the next few years to protect the ocean.
Kate Noble (44:37)
Thanks Jess, great to chat.
