This conversation delves into the critical state of coral reefs, highlighting the various stressors they face and the legal protections in place to safeguard them. It discusses the illegal activities that threaten these ecosystems, such as fishing and harming marine life, and emphasises the importance of marine protected areas in regulating human interaction with coral reefs.

Dedicated scientists like Angelique Brathwaite are pioneering innovative approaches to protect these vital ecosystems. In Episode 4 of Art Strategy Impact, we explore Angie’s journey as a coral reef crime scene investigator and the transformative work she’s doing through the Blue Alliance Marine Protected Areas.  

Keywords

coral reefs, marine protected areas, underwater crime, environmental protection, coral mortality

Takeaways

• Coral reefs are experiencing high levels of mortality due to various stressors.

• Many places have legal protections for coral reefs.

• Illegal activities on coral reefs can lead to underwater crime scenes.

• Specific regulations exist for gear types and mesh sizes in marine protected areas.

• Fishing and harming marine life in protected areas is illegal.

• Bombing is a destructive form of fishing that impacts coral reefs.

• Marine protected areas aim to mitigate human impact on coral ecosystems.

• The health of coral reefs is crucial for marine biodiversity.

• Awareness of coral reef protection is essential for conservation efforts.

• Understanding the legal framework can help in protecting coral reefs.

Podcast Links

Sponsor | ⁠The Australian French Association for Innovation and Research⁠⁠

https://www.afran.org.au/

TikTok | ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@ArtStrategyImpact

Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/artstrategyimpact/

LinkedIn | ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-coldrey/

Website | ⁠https://www.jesscoldrey.com⁠

Guest Links

https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelique-brathwaite70/

https://bluealliance.earth/

Transcript

Jess Coldrey (00:00)

Gloves on, jacket zipped, an investigator steps over yellow tape and into a crime scene. They look around with sharp eyes, searching closely for anything that doesn't belong. Imagine this story again, but this time the investigator swims onto the scene. They document the damaged reefs meticulously, notice what's out of place and collect clues, and make the invisible visible. Investigators are known for solving puzzles to bring justice to those unlawfully harmed.

especially in this case when the ocean can't speak for itself. Today's guest Angie is a coral reef crime scene investigator and science director changing the way we protect our oceans. Bringing fun, adventure and creativity into all corners of her work, she builds marine partnerships that are fairer and more financially sustainable for island communities. I'm Jess Coldrey and you're listening to episode four of Art Strategy Impact.

the podcast Bridging Disciplines to reimagine how we live, build and belong in harmony with nature. This mini-series on ocean governance is generously supported by the Australian French Association for Innovation and Research.

Angelique Brathwaite is a marine biologist from Barbados with over 20 years of experience dedicated to protecting coral reefs. Her work and studies have led her across continents, both on land and offshore, as a diving instructor

and former submarine co-pilot. Angie is the co-founder and science director of Blue Alliance Marine Protected Areas, an organization which has now been running for a decade. Blue Alliance pioneers innovative, self-sustaining funding models for marine conservation. Their focus includes working alongside governments to co-manage dozens of marine protected areas, or MPAs, as social enterprises.

This work combines reef conservation with support for local communities and reef positive businesses. Angelique's team co-manages over 60 MPAs internationally, including in the Pacific. Welcome to the podcast, Angie.

Angelique Brathwaite (02:17)

Thank you, really happy to be here.

Jess Coldrey (02:20)

I know you're formerly a submarine co-pilot. How did that come about?

Angelique Brathwaite (02:25)

You know what, that sounds a lot cooler than it actually is. I was a glorified mechanic and I was terrible at mechanics as well. So this is Atlantis submarines in Barbados and prior to me they hired primarily guys who had an engineering background and our job really was mainly maintaining the submarine and the boats and all that.

Jess Coldrey (02:28)

Hahaha!

Angelique Brathwaite (02:52)

So they brought me on because of my marine biology background. So I helped them clean up their spiels for the guests. So, you know, pointing out what's under water, why it's important, et cetera. it was such a fun job. I learned a lot.

I can do oil changes in my car. It was absolutely amazing. I had a great five years at Atlantis Submarines.

Jess Coldrey (03:17)

What is a coral crime scene?

Angelique Brathwaite (03:21)

So a coral crime scene, they are lots of activities that are illegal on coral reefs.

So for example, bombing, which is a rather extensive form of fishing that, you know, blows a reef up.

or if you're not supposed to be taking fish and you take fish or if you're killing a turtle, things like these things are illegal.

So in many places, coral reefs are protected because I'm sure everyone that is listening is aware that we're in a very...

I guess a dangerous time for coral reefs where they're being impacted by so many different stressors in such a short space of time. So they're really seeing really high levels of mortality. And in many cases, coral reefs are protected

in many marine protected areas, when crimes are committed on coral reefs,

then it can become an underwater crime scene. If your boat's anchor falls and smashes a coral reef, that's a crime scene. So this, the coral reef crime scene investigation was developed by a really, really cool guy called Dave Goukho. And he developed this way of assessing and collecting evidence from an underwater crime scene.

and following chain of custody, teaching, training ecologists how to follow chain of custody so that the evidence can be used in the court of law. And it was, it's really important, right? Because we are trained as ecologists. We're not trained as crime scene investigators. So, you know, prior to this, I would have gone down, it was anchor damage. I would measure it and say X meters square of coral. But obviously in many cases, the yacht or whoever would drop the anchor is going to get off scot-free because I didn't know what to do.

⁓ in terms of the evidence to actually get them prosecuted. So the coral reef crime scene we taught ecologists ⁓ in many different countries how to gather evidence and follow chain of custody. And it was also just so much fun. At the end of it, we would always have a mock. ⁓

court. with a judge and the prosecutors and the defenders and we'd have to present our evidence and so on. So again there's that element of play but that's rooted really strongly in something that was extremely serious.

Jess Coldrey (05:57)

Wow, it's incredible thinking about how you kind of create a space of justice through almost play and theatre, but then that becomes real at the same time.

I

I can see from some of your work online that one of your big personal values is play. And this playfulness seems to be a core part of your identity. Was that always the case?

Angelique Brathwaite (06:20)

Yeah, I actually think it has been the case. I it's a part of my personality and I think it's the best way to get people to do what you want them to do is if you add an element of fun and joy into it. And then I really do feel people jump in with both feet and that's the way to capture people's hearts with play.

Jess Coldrey (06:44)

Beautiful!

I love that and it sounds like you have a particular interest in coral reefs as well. What inspired that commitment for you?

Angelique Brathwaite (06:53)

I mean, my love of the sea started with my dad. ⁓ He was a swimmer. He got us, me and my brother, swimming. And my mom was afraid of the sea, but she knew we needed to learn how to swim, and she learned to swim at the age of 40. ⁓ But coral reefs, you know what it is? It's just that I am contrary. And I think that everyone in my marine biology class is interested in fish, and I decided to be different.

and you know to get to study corals and I am so happy because they are the most enigmatic amazing contradictory fragile and resilient little animals you'll ever come across and they form some of the biggest structures created by animals on the planet they are amazing ecosystem and and it's because of them that we have the fish anyway you know so I'm

Jess Coldrey (07:40)

.

Angelique Brathwaite (07:49)

really happy that I focused on corals. And it's funny because my husband focuses on fish and we're always happy to have the dates on which is more important, the fish or corals. But it's clear that the corals are more important and because of them, that's why we have fish in tropical seas, you know? So anyway, we can continue that debate another time.

Jess Coldrey (08:12)

Well, what's not to love about coral reefs?

Angelique Brathwaite (08:14)

Yeah, but you know, people still think they're rocks. That's the thing. And I find I get a bit disillusioned sometimes after all that we have done. You know, for someone right now to ask me, you know, if coral is a rock or or an animal, I have to grit my teeth first and go, OK, it's an animal. Let me tell you about this. And that's not really fair, right? Because if you started talking to me about

airspace engineering, wouldn't have a clue. So it's not fair of me at all, but I just feel like the whole world needs to know that corals are animal and that we need to protect them.

Jess Coldrey (08:52)

you have a love of art as well. Do you think that art and creativity play a role in marine conservation?

Angelique Brathwaite (09:00)

For sure, no two ways about it. I I still say I'm a dancer, even though I haven't danced in long time. And I love all arts, ⁓ visual arts especially. And I really do feel, I mean, I'm from Barbados, a tiny island. Many Barbadians cannot swim or could not swim. That's changing now. I'm so happy about that.

And you know, we were always told by our grandparents, the sea has no back door. So there was this fair, there's this kind of love hate relationship with the sea or fair love because Bajans love the sea. Always there, but up to the knees, know, and splashing and not going out into the deep. And I realized early, early on that the only way I'm going to get Barbadians to come and help me is if they're able to fall in love with the ocean like I have and

One way of doing that is to pull them in with beautiful things, whether those beautiful things are dances. We did dances on the beach in the sand and coming out of trees or whether it is visual arts, you know, put in scientific equipment beside art that's been inspired by the marine environment and explaining both of them, theatrical productions, music, dance, ⁓ whatever.

If I can draw you in in these ways, theater was amazing, an amazing way to draw people in because they laugh and learn at the same time. But if I could use the arts to pull people in, then I've got them, right? I've captured their hearts and their minds and their souls. I've captured everything. So it's played a really, really strong role in my work in the Caribbean, especially. I'm losing a little bit of it now.

but I need to get back there.

Jess Coldrey (10:57)

What a lovely legacy and way to connect people with the ocean. And I'm sure that's a lasting change as well, even if it was a few years ago. The theater in particular sounds fascinating. Could you tell us a little bit more

Angelique Brathwaite (11:09)

I think just generally people don't understand a lot about coral reefs and about marine and coastal ecosystems. And

You know, it's a huge difference between having a point presentation and going through and telling people this is  a coral not a rock and then, you know, going through the morphology and everything. is a huge difference between that and having a theatrical production that relies heavily on comedy, for example, to explain to people about coral reefs and what they look like and why they're important to us and our lives.

⁓ and you get a laugh out of it and it's beautiful. You know in some of the theatrical productions we used kids, we used little kids from the schools and they were the ones that were you know moving the cloth to represent waves. We worked with one of the foremost ⁓ carnival artists, Domuali Stewart and he created all these wonderful sets.

So we pulled all kinds of different people, the artists, the children, obviously the actors. And ⁓ after each production, you know, we would just sit down and I mean, it was such a wonderful feeling because I didn't even have to, we didn't even have to prompt the audience. The audience will just ask questions, which means, you know, that they have understood enough, they've grasped enough and they're now engaged. ⁓ And that was, you know, that those theatrical productions were wonderful.

And the other thing that was wonderful was using TV, you know, because at that time many Barbadians hadn't seen, they hadn't, you know, they're not swimming, they're definitely not snorkeling, they're not diving. I mean, that's why I became a dive instructor. I became a dive instructor really to train Barbadians to dive. ⁓ But when you take a camera underwater and you film and then you come back and you show.

them and people were like, people would stop me on the street and go, really? This is around Barbados. And I'm like, yes, we have fantastic rays. And by the same token, we did a beautiful coffee table book ⁓ with Hazel Otsenford and Ramon Roach, two of my colleagues. And again, all of the images were taken from Barbados. And then we wrote about the importance of them and wrote about the art and the science.

Jess Coldrey (13:18)

You

Angelique Brathwaite (13:37)

And again, people are so engaged and they can't believe that this beauty exists around our islands. So I mean, without the arts, it would be kind of dry, right? It would just tell people, well Barbados is a coral reef and it's super pretty. ⁓ But it wouldn't have the same impact at all. I couldn't have done what I've done in education and awareness without.

the arts. always, it just brings that soul into everything. Yeah.

Jess Coldrey (14:10)

Makes sense and it seems like that artwork and that imagery and that awareness really inspires more connection. I suppose that ties into how willing people are to, I guess, one step into the ocean in that way, but to also input into protecting it and being a part of that whole face of things.

Angelique Brathwaite (14:32)

Exactly. I mean, I had ulterior motives, right? My ulterior motive was for them to fall in love with the reefs, learn to swim, learn to dive. We'd help them every step of the way. And then they are the ones that would come back and help me protect, you know, the marine environment. So, yeah, I had ulterior motives. It worked very well. I'm very happy.

Jess Coldrey (14:51)

Beautiful.

Angelique Brathwaite (14:53)

I was looking at marine protected areas in Barbados and looking at how we could get these marine protected areas funded and financed. And I was working for the government at that time. And I was looking for innovative ways of

doing. You need patrol boats. You need gear and equipment. You need a lot of things. And I was at ⁓ a coral reef meeting in Belize and this gentleman came and he was talking about using ⁓ investment, using business.

to finance marine protected areas. And I was like, that's never gonna work in a million years. Those are two different worlds. We don't deal with business. ⁓ eventually I listened. ⁓ He was looking for pilot sites. And I said Barbados just because, why not? Let's see where this is going. ⁓ And eventually we fell in love. He's now my husband and the other founder of Blue Alliance.

So to be honest, it was really driven primarily by him. The thing about Blue Alliance is that it is, we help co-manage marine protected areas with local governments, which is comme d'habitude. But the other thing we do is we work on sustainable financing for that marine protected area. So the two of them kind of go hand in hand.

So I'm very much focusing though on the science of the marine protected areas and Nico, who's the CEO, ⁓ he works on the financing angle. So together it works really well. But I can't really claim credit for being the driving force behind the financial element of the Alliance.

Jess Coldrey (16:52)

Well, I'm sure your impacts are broad and many. And I thought I might just add in for viewers who are new to marine protected areas or MPAs, it might be helpful just to know what they are as well. I understand that they're very special, important zones of the ocean that have been legally protected to minimize harmful activities like fishing and to protect the life that belongs there, including corals and...

Angelique Brathwaite (16:57)

you

Jess Coldrey (17:20)

other marine life like you mentioned. Globally 8 % of the ocean is covered by MPAs I believe which are overseen both by nations in their own waters and through international treaties in the high seas. Scientists at the moment are calling for 30 % of the ocean to be protected by 2030. But taking a look at the marine protected areas which are already established which you work a lot with through Blue Alliance.

What's the difference between an MPA that's self-sustaining and isn't

Angelique Brathwaite (17:54)

Yeah, well, I mean, they're both really important. But in terms of being self-sustaining, we were talking about being financially self-sustaining, right? ⁓ And that means that there needs to be some element of business in and around the MPAs. So again, this comes back to my initial thought that our feeling that business has no place in conservation, which I was very wrong.

⁓ So there has to be some element of business. When we first started, we were thinking that that business element would be ⁓ eco-tourism sustainable eco-tourism, right? So we're protecting these areas. You're expecting to see more fish, especially in time, ⁓ better health of corals and so on. So therefore this area should be more aesthetically pleasing for tourism. And if you're coming to an area of heightened

you know, health and improvement, then those, the value of that should flow through from the tourists that are coming to visit. But, you know, it's a bit of a paradox as well, because those tourists often have the most negative impacts on that marine protected area. So it's a really, really strong focus on sustainable tourism, right? But then, of course, we also want other areas where people are not coming.

that are going to be as unspoiled and pristine as possible. ⁓ So we tend to have, a variety of marine protected areas that we're working with. Some will have the impacts of tourism ⁓ as a business, some of them will not. But then there are other businesses that we're looking at. And these businesses are what we consider to be reef positive businesses in that

They have, we try for them to have a positive impact on the marine environment and coral reefs like sea cucumbers, sea cucumber aquaculture. That's one of our reef positive businesses. The very least that they're not going to have a negative impact on coral reefs, right? So in some of our marine protected areas then we have aquaculture. That's the other reef positive business. Ecotourism on one hand.

and sustainable aquaculture, which is done with the communities on the other hand. And we do think that a combination of these will provide enough money to manage the marine protected areas and not only those that they are surrounded by, but also those where we don't have so so much traffic.

Jess Coldrey (20:41)

the Blue Alliance website talks a little bit about innovation financing. How does that connect into reef positive businesses?

Angelique Brathwaite (20:51)

So reef positive businesses, would say, are innovative financing. So marine protected areas historically have been financed by governments, right? And governments have shifting priorities, right? Every five years, you get a new prime minister or president, priorities change. And also, to be fair, I mean, if you have a limited budget and you're dealing with crime, you're dealing with health, and you're dealing with education.

Jess Coldrey (21:07)

Hmm?

Angelique Brathwaite (21:17)

If I pop up and say, help me save coral reefs you're probably not going to listen to me, even though coral reefs are linked to all of the above. ⁓ So we needed to find innovative ways of financing MPAs. And this is what I was speaking about earlier, that innovation comes in the form of business, because prior to this, we're not looking at business as a, not really as a force for good and for that money to go into conservation.

So with Blue Alliance we're trying to move away from those traditional sources of government, subventions, grants and philanthropy. Not entirely, we still need them. But we are going into business. ⁓ And to go into business, we need to get financing for that. And we are going towards impact investment. And impact investment are, they're investors and they're not stupid, they want their money back.

Jess Coldrey (22:15)

Hahaha

Angelique Brathwaite (22:16)

And they want their money back with interest. However, the returns are not, you know, stupidly high because they also want to see returns on environmental impacts and they need to see returns on social impacts. So there are three things, financial, social and environmental. So they are a different type of investors. They're not just concerned about money, money, money, money. They're also concerned about the other impacts, which makes them

amazing partners for us to work with. But again, going into debt for marine conservation is something that is new, is something that is innovative, something I never would have thought of in a million years. It takes someone who wears two hats. So Nico, for example, is a marine biologist, but he's also an economist. So it'll take someone with that brain to come up, you know, this kind of innovative financing mechanism. And then

Jess Coldrey (23:01)

Mm.

Angelique Brathwaite (23:15)

our hope is that this sort of financing mechanism is sustainable, right? So that, you know, in the next two years, five years, we don't have to go hand in cap to government again, because our businesses will continue to finance the management of the marine protected areas and the communities that live in and around them. mean, I haven't spoken about them, but we can't do any of these reef positive businesses without the communities.

We need their input, we need their expertise, we need their guardianship. ⁓ And they also benefit from these three positive businesses. So it's a kind of a win-win situation for us and them. But we do need to work hand-in-hand ⁓ with them for the businesses.

Jess Coldrey (24:06)

It sounds like a great system and also like it involves lots of partnerships.

Angelique Brathwaite (24:12)

Yep, it does. You're quite right. You're quite right. But I stay in my corner with science and we track the health of the marine ecosystems and also make sure that our conservation measures are working. And if they're not working, then we need to pivot quickly and make some changes. But we do have lots of partnerships in science as well. So in every country, we do tend to work with them.

Jess Coldrey (24:13)

Hahaha

Angelique Brathwaite (24:40)

with the universities and then other environmentally minded NGOs. So far it's working very well.

Jess Coldrey (24:47)

Fantastic.

it seems that collaboration is a running theme in your work. Through Blue Alliance, I know you've partnered with NGOs, banks, local stakeholders, and personally have also worked and conducted research in the Caribbean, East Africa, Southeast Asia, France. How can countries and communities work together to protect marine life?

Angelique Brathwaite (25:11)

And governments, we also collaborate with governments because we are co-management agreements to all the governments. ⁓ I think, I think.

Jess Coldrey (25:15)

yes.

course.

Angelique Brathwaite (25:21)

I don't know, you cannot work together.

for the benefit of the marine environment. NGOs can't do it on their own and they shouldn't because these areas are owned by governments. It is the responsibility of governments to conserve these areas for their people. So governments have to be there. In many cases, governments don't have all the resources, so the NGOs have to be there. The communities have to be in and around every decision that is being made because it has direct impacts on them.

We need the grant facilities to provide money that is not debt, that doesn't have to pay back to give us a little bit of a boost. We need philanthropy for the same reason. And then we do think with the impact investors and the banks, ⁓ we're working ⁓ with UBS and BNP Paribas and a number of other banks actually. ⁓

Jess Coldrey (26:05)

Mm-hmm.

Angelique Brathwaite (26:24)

to provide some of the money in different forms and different ways to help protect the marine environment. So I mean, there's no way that it can be done without collaboration. I think that is, I think to flip that question, I think on its head, it has to be collaborative. There's no way it's gonna work without it. And it needs all of those different players.

Jess Coldrey (26:47)

Amazing. I was actually speaking to a shark scientist on one of the previous episodes and she was saying how a shark swimming along a reef underwater doesn't know when it's crossed into a new national territory and these kind of invisible borders that we come up with as humans don't necessarily translate into the ocean.

Angelique Brathwaite (27:07)

Definitely not. No way.

Jess Coldrey (27:09)

I'd imagine a lot of the different countries and contexts you work in have some similarities, some differences. And I know your work today looks beyond the coral reefs of Barbados and now looks internationally, including in the Pacific, such as in Indonesia and the Philippines. What are the biggest challenges threatening these reefs in the Pacific?

Angelique Brathwaite (27:33)

You know, ⁓ yes, it's a very, it's a very different context because a lot of these reefs are far from humans. ⁓ And I would say that the biggest.

man-made issue. Okay, global climate change is man-made, I'm talking about that. ⁓ It's dynamite fishing, really, because many of the reefs that we work in are, they're gorgeous, my word, I should have said that first of all, they're absolutely, absolutely spectacular. Beautiful, beautiful reefs, ⁓ and relatively healthy, I would say, because they're not close to land, so they're not

not heavily impacted by land-based sources of marine pollution or our fishes drop in their nets or boats drop in their anchors, but they are impacted very heavily by dynamite fishing. So you're just cruising along this absolutely phenomenal reef and then boom, you know, you just see a whole bunch of rubble from dynamite and or you feel it because someone is in the area dynamite fishing, but I mean,

you know when I when I first got to many of these reefs I was thinking that you know dynamite fishing is awful and horrible ⁓ for the reef but it's also something that we can deal with not not easily but at least it's it's something that we can grasp and we can deal with right and we are so we are seeing with our enforcement issues because in all these countries blast fishing is illegal

And we are seeing a reduction in the amount of dynamite fishing. So that is happening. ⁓ That's something that we can deal with. Unlike land-based sources of marine pollution that is so diffuse and is coming from so many different places on land that that's really hard to get a handle on. And also, we can't really implement or set up sewage treatment plants on different countries. That's not something we can do. But we can reduce.

⁓ illegal and unsustainable fishing. So that is very much so on light barbatos and like many of the islands in the Caribbean. The biggest issue that we're seeing is ⁓ blast fishing, the biggest stressor.

Jess Coldrey (29:55)

And for viewers to imagine the kind of scale that this dynamite fishing is on, how big is the blast site generally?

Angelique Brathwaite (30:07)

I mean that's a difficult question to answer because they will use different types of bombs ⁓ so that I can't answer ⁓ but I will tell you that what the blast fishing does is it reduces the reef to rubble so of course it blows everything up and I think everyone is aware that corals take an excruciatingly long time to grow.

Um, but the problem is, is that the diet blast fishing is generating rubble fields and rubble moves and baby corals need to have a firm surface to settle on and start to grow. And if they settle on rubble and the rubble is moving around and around and around, then they're going to die. So the blast fishing is not only affecting the area that, um, has been reduced to rubble, but that rubble moves.

and then that affects other areas of reef and in all of that the coral recruits are not able to settle and start growing. So it's a huge problem. ⁓ Yeah, it's a huge problem.

Jess Coldrey (31:15)

And in the Pacific as well, I've heard of something called the Coral Triangle. What is that?

Angelique Brathwaite (31:24)

We are working in the coral triangle. It's not really a triangle, but it, guess, kind of, but it's, it's, it's roughly triangular and it encompasses Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Solomon Islands, Timor Leste, PNG. And this area has the highest biodiversity in the world. Then we have the privilege of, of working in MPs in two of those sites. So it's, ⁓

It's amazing, quite frankly. And because of that, I think that many of these reefs have a really good chance of recovery. It's not rocket science, right? If you start with a healthy reef, even everyone is talking about bleaching and bleaching is really important and that's having a huge impact on coral reefs.

Jess Coldrey (31:59)

Wow.

Angelique Brathwaite (32:19)

But they are showing that if you start with a healthy reef that doesn't have many stressors, then the corals are better able to respond to bleaching, is sensible. So I feel like our reefs in Indonesia and Philippines especially have a really good chance of recovery. We also work in Sansabar, again, a beautiful, beautiful reefscape. ⁓ And we're...

we're monitoring and we're watching to see the recovery from bleaching as well.

Jess Coldrey (32:52)

Fantastic and Blue Alliance is supporting some areas within the Coral Triangle like the Bengai Islands in Indonesia. Is that right?

Angelique Brathwaite (33:02)

Yeah, those are our sights. They're gorgeous.

Jess Coldrey (33:04)

OK.

And in terms of the MPAs there, is it too early to see any results yet?

Angelique Brathwaite (33:14)

No, no, no, no. mean, OK, we're not going to see results in coral health again. Corals take a really long time to grow. And also there many impacts that come from outside the marine protected areas that we can do absolutely nothing about. But in terms of fish biomass, we are definitely seeing fish biomass increasing slowly. But it is, you know, indicating that our conservation methods

are working. I mean it's going to take time. You're not going to see a massive explosion of fish but we've seen some very gentle, very gentle increases so it's telling us that we're going in the right direction and it's not only you know enforcement, it's not just you know stopping people from fishing. mean fishing is a really hard job. When I first started in marine biology I was all about you know the fishers are bad, the fishers are bad but it's not you know.

many fishers are poor and they're trying to feed themselves and their family and they are just trying to make do with what they have. ⁓ And what we're trying to do then is trying to find a balance between sustainable fishing or trying to find this balance with sustainable fishing, right? So fishers are not the baddies. So when we do encounter fishers who are fishing with illegal gear, we try and pivot them.

In Zanzibar we use illegal spearfishers or guides who are caught fishing, spearfishing illegally. We use them to help us monitor for crown with thorn starfish and we pay them for it. ⁓ In Philippines we use fishers, not necessarily legal ones, but fishers to do the same thing. To count cocks, be out there to let us know when bleaching is happening, etc. So we're trying to

manage and we're trying to manage in not a heavy-handed way you know that's what we're trying to do.

Jess Coldrey (35:20)

I love that and taking kind of a skills-based approach to supporting people to transition into other employment or other ways of engaging with the

Angelique Brathwaite (35:32)

I think it's other ways of engaging with the ocean. At first we thought that it be great for fishers to become tour guides and take people on tours. But the reality is that a fisher is a fisher and he wants to fish. I mean, there few that will become excellent tour guides. Many of our rangers are ex-fishers and ex-illegal fishers at that. And they know the ocean better than anybody else.

So yeah, it's about pivoting them, keeping their love for the ocean, but just redirecting and pivoting. And they've become some of our strongest supporters. So it's been very rewarding.

Jess Coldrey (36:13)

imagine. And

⁓ To change currents for a second, thinking back to your time studying when you were doing marine science at EPHE in Paris as a postgraduate, were there any lessons from studying in France that have stuck with you and have continued into your work now?

Angelique Brathwaite (36:34)

Yeah, learn French at a very early age. Do not wait until you're in your 50s to learn French. Honestly, is what's up. French is the most difficult language I have ever. Well, I'm not good with languages. That is not what you wanted to hear. but yeah, because I mean, my experience doing a PhD in France was very

Jess Coldrey (36:39)

Hahaha!

Angelique Brathwaite (36:57)

I mean, my research was still based in Barbados, for example. That was my that was my pilot site. So and it was fully research as well. It was done by a series of papers. So the experience wasn't for me wasn't so much a French experience. I just happened to be here and battling with the language. But yeah, not so much.

Jess Coldrey (37:21)

I, through school, learned Chinese and French and I can say that I found French a lot more challenging.

Angelique Brathwaite (37:26)

no. No.

And you did that willingly?

Jess Coldrey (37:33)

Well, the Chinese, our school went from kindergarten to the final year of school when you're 18 years old. In the first 10 years, everyone did Chinese, which was pretty interesting. And we did a kind of study tour to China and we were learning Mandarin. So was quite unique. mean, I'm Australian and we're quite close to Asia. So it's interesting to learn a more

Angelique Brathwaite (37:46)

Wow. ⁓

Jess Coldrey (38:01)

local language than Europe. yeah, I mean, I can't say much more than my favorite foods at this point. That's what stuck with me asking for a hamburger or that sort of thing. But yeah, it is interesting how languages are all structured differently. And I suppose when you encounter one that is just in a completely different shape of form, it's challenging to grapple with mentally, I think, in your head before you even start to try and speak it out loud.

Angelique Brathwaite (38:24)

Yeah.

Yeah, no, and I'm not good at languages and I loved Spanish. I was happy with that. then, and then somehow I ended up in France and it, and it's funny because all our sites have a different language, right? There's Swahili in Tanzania, then there's Bahasa in Indonesia and Tagalog in Philippines. I I just keep mixing them up all the time. It's really quite terrible. So languages, that's not something that I'm good at.

Jess Coldrey (38:58)

I have one friend who's trilingual and she said the hardest thing was, suppose, she said with the first language it was like there was a division halfway through her brain and she could switch from one to the other but then when you add three or four they all just end up in this kind of swirling puddle of words that seem to intermingle. That sounds very challenging so I respect that.

Angelique Brathwaite (39:23)

Yeah, well, I think I'll spend the rest of my life trying to learn French. But yeah, it's been great experience being here.

Jess Coldrey (39:33)

Good, good. And finally, having devoted over two decades to marine science and conservation, how do you see the ocean now on a personal level and what does it mean to you?

Angelique Brathwaite (39:46)

⁓ I feel like I've been through so many different feelings and sensations about the ocean and I'm just now coming out of a it's all over, it's all lost. ⁓ coral's again, I'm glad I got to see them in their glory. And I'm coming out of that into being very, very hopeful because the reefs, coral reefs are such complex.

Jess Coldrey (40:00)

I

Angelique Brathwaite (40:16)

systems and we don't understand half of it. I remember in Barbados one time we were ⁓ looking at corals at the end of a sewage pipe and you know you're in sewage because you can see all the masticated toilet paper and corals are supposed to not love nutrients and there were some of the biggest most beautiful corals growing at the end of this pipe which is a shock and I hear stories like this quite a lot.

Jess Coldrey (40:30)

Hmm

Angelique Brathwaite (40:41)

So there's still much that we don't understand. So even though we seem to be trying our very best to wipe coral reefs off the face of the planet, ⁓ they probably have some tricks up their sleeves. ⁓ So I am now coming out of it's all over into, you know what, there's hope, you know, they're probably gonna.

re-aeronize themselves and have different shapes and forms. But they existed before we did. We probably kill ourselves off and they'll keep Chandana and Mary Lee along. So hope. That's where I am now. Hope.

Jess Coldrey (41:21)

I'm glad to hear it. I suppose being a conservationist is also being a frontline worker to disasters in a lot of cases. And I suppose that takes a toll over time and comes in different ways of pessimism and optimism. But good to remember, like you said, that a lot of nature outdates us and hopefully it still has lots of tricks up its sleeve that we haven't seen yet or just haven't noticed.

Angelique Brathwaite (41:47)

Yep,

yep, that is my hope.

Jess Coldrey (41:52)

Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, and I really enjoyed the episode.

Angelique Brathwaite (41:57)

You're welcome, so did I.

Jess Coldrey (41:59)

Take care.

Angelique Brathwaite (42:01)

Okay, bye.