In this episode, Miriama Bono shares her insights on the interconnectedness of land, culture, and ocean in Polynesian perspectives. She discusses her work in museums, repatriation efforts, and the importance of storytelling in preserving heritage.

Key topics

• The Polynesian view of nature as a unified whole

• The importance of land and ocean in Polynesian identity

• Repatriation of cultural artifacts and its challenges

• The role of museums in community engagement and education

• Storytelling as a tool for cultural preservation

• The impact of colonial history on cultural artifacts

• The relationship between architecture and cultural identity

• The significance of native languages and symbols in museums

• The future of Polynesian youth in arts and culture

• The ocean as a connector and a sacred element in Polynesian culture

Guest Link

https://www.miriamabono.com/

Transcript

Jess (00:00)

Before we begin today's conversation, I want to invite you to think about what it means for an object to find its way home. Museums around the world are filled with items, some sacred, others borrowed, found, or taken from other places. We see examples in museums around the world from the contentious Koh-i-Noor diamond set in the British Crown, which is one of the largest cut diamonds in the world.

Miriama (00:16)

you

Jess (00:27)

To the thousands of archaeological and ethnographic objects passing hands between countries year to year. Another example is the National Museum of Denmark, who have been involved in decades-long efforts to return items like manuscripts, instruments, and cultural wear to their homes in Iceland, Greenland, Norway, and Brazil. And this is a conversation that's starting to emerge in museums around the world.

Miriama (00:32)

.

you

Jess (00:56)

Objects held in museum collections can open our eyes to the histories and practices of other cultures. But at the same time, it's important to ask the question: what parts of the story aren't being told? And often when we're talking about ancestral objects, items can hold a deep past, present, and future connection to their original people and owners. So I wanna ask in this episode, what stories can these objects continue to tell?

When perhaps they've been severed from the worlds that originally gave them their meaning. Today we're speaking with a decorated cultural leader focusing on the ongoing story of Polynesian creative artifacts. Miriama Bono was born and raised in French Polynesia, training in architecture in Paris before returning home to reshape how Pacific heritage is preserved and shared. As a painter, curator,

Miriama (01:29)

Thank

Okay.

Jess (01:53)

Museum director and podcaster, Miriama engages deeply with place-based storytelling and environmental stewardship, including promoting the voices of young artists. I'm Jess Coldrey and you're listening to episode six of Art Strategy Impact, the podcast bridging disciplines to reimagine how we live, build, and belong in harmony with nature. Today I'm recording this episode in Australia on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation.

Miriama (02:11)

you

Jess (02:20)

I pay my deep respect to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge their continuing connection to country, culture, and community. This mini-series on ocean governance is generously supported by the Australian French Association for Innovation and Research. It's my pleasure to officially introduce Miriama Bono to the podcast. Miriama has been awarded some of France's highest national honours.

Miriama (02:42)

you

Jess (02:45)

Excuse my pronunciation, but these honours have been at the night level, including the Odre national du Mérite Légion d’honneur and Ordre des Arts et des Lettres recognizing her transformative impact across public leadership, service, and cultural influence. One of Miriama's most well-known projects was during her tenure as the director of the Museum of Tahiti and the Islands. Te Fare Iamanaha

Ilmanaha sorry Miriama from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty three. And during this period she oversaw a major renovation of the museum and cultivated powerful partnerships that helped bring back Polynesian cultural artifacts from museums around the world to be exhibited in their ancestral home. It's my great pleasure to be speaking with you today, Miriama. Welcome to the podcast.

Miriama (03:19)

You

You're right now. Hello. Hi.

Jess (03:42)

Thanks for being here, and I'm really looking forward to hearing more about your career and the values that have been driving you in your work and also your perspective on the future of the arts and culture in the context of Tahiti. And in our last conversation, something that actually really stuck with me was you mentioned that originally in Tahitian or Rio Tahiti there wasn't

a word to describe nature and I was wondering if you could tell us to start off why that is and maybe what's the story behind that.

Miriama (04:19)

Yeah, in fact in modern Tahitian, we have a word which is natura, which comes from nature, I mean it's very close, but in the ancient Tahiti, nature and human being was not two separate things, it was a whole and in fact when you think about it, this concept of nature is something very western in fact.

because it's like if you have nature opposed to humans and so it's like if you know human being is in fact the most valuable part of creation. So that's not the case in Polynesian words. For the Polynesians we are part of a world.

meaning that every interaction that we have with everything that surrounds us will of course have an impact and that's why also like in for the aboriginal for an example we don't own the land we are just a part of the land and we have to respect the land and we have also to to own the land meaning that we also have obligations.

for the lands. And to give you a simple example, normally for Polynesian when you are introducing yourself, you should name of course your family name, also your island, your mountains, your river. And so it's also, it shows the way the physical link that people have with land.

So of course today we are also living in the modern world so now we have the word natura but again in ancient civilization it was not something that was opposed to human beings.

Jess (06:17)

Such an interesting way to think about it, and I guess sometimes language can really contrast for us and show us some of the different perspectives and kind of customs that come with a culture in what we choose to give voice to through language. And I think that's a really beautiful way for people to be able to kind of understand the the power of I suppose the Tahitian perspective and broader indigenous perspectives of how we

define and understand ourselves versus nature and you know maybe when that binary distinction isn't the right way to look at things.

Miriama (06:56)

Yeah, for us it's more complex than that. As I said, it's also a question of responsibility. And in many Polynesian islands, in fact, it's like if the land is your ancestor, in fact, and you still have, including in Tahiti, traditions linked to, for an example, burying the placenta of a newborn in the land, which is a very powerful way to link

the new child with the land where he was born from the land of his family. So you have still today many ways to show a specific link, which is philosophical but also social in some way.

Jess (07:43)

Absolutely. And I understand your work repeatedly brings culture into relationship with land, plants, the environment and the ocean. Again, not as separate things, but as kind of one in the same system. And I'm curious to hear your perspective on the other side of when we treat the kind of culture, you know, ourselves and nature as separate things.

What do you think the consequences are of thinking in that way?

Miriama (08:14)

Well, as I said, when you oppose humans and nature, it's like if, know, human being will be more important than nature and that you can, in fact, exploit, exploit, exploit, yeah, I think you said exploit in English, land and rivers for your own, for your own service, in fact.

Jess (08:39)

Mm-hmm.

Miriama (08:45)

and doing that without respect. It's also a way, in fact, to deny the right of native people with the specific connection that they have with land, which is not only, as I said, ownership, but which is also a very spiritual and profound link.

A link that you will have with animals, a link that you will have with also water, with ocean and so and so on. Somehow what we feel as native people more and more, I mean in the Pacific but in many countries I think, is that when you oppose nature to humans, it gives you the right to use nature for your own

business or for development and for you know this this thing that we know called progress So that is also the question that you have behind that. What is progress in fact? Is there any progress by just exploitation of resources without asking permission or without understanding the very Essential balance between all our interaction and I think that's the main

the main part of this relation with land is, as I said, we also have responsibilities. So responsibilities for the land, but also responsibilities with what our ancestors gave to us, but also to what we want to give to the next generation. So it's, as I said, it's a question of balance, which is not...

Yeah, in position, but more way to understand everything as a whole, which begin to be more and more complex right now. I mean, in our modern world, because you always have this confrontation between tradition and native knowledge and what is now called progress. And so if you are claiming for respect to land, most of the time, it's like if you are rejecting progress.

Jess (11:05)

Hmm. Wow, I think yes, absolutely. I think you've illustrated it really beautifully and that kind of influence of that base understanding and how we see ourselves in our relationship to the world influencing kind of broader foundations of why exploitative mindsets have been so proliferative. So I think that's a really interesting connection to make and a great contrast. Thank you.

Miriama (11:06)

development.

Jess (11:33)

And Miriama I know you've had a really interesting and diverse career. You've worked as an architect, a painter, a curator, museum director, and a podcaster as well. And I'd love to hear from your perspective what's in common across these areas and what interests and passions kind of link and underpin your explorations in these different disciplines.

Miriama (11:57)

Well, I think it was first linked to a lot of curiosity, a lot of passion for storytelling and the wish to pass it also to the youngest generation. When I was a child in French Polynesia, it was quite difficult in fact to know about our own history. I mean, I've learned as we are French territories, we are in French system.

So when I was at school, I learned French history, which is interesting, of course, but I never learned about stories of the Pacific, never learned about the story of French Polynesia, I never learned how we became a country, and also never learned about all the interaction and the links that we have with other Pacific islands. So it's something that came after when I, in fact,

quite interestingly when I have been studying in Paris, that I realized that first I was an Islander, but also that we had a common history with other nations in the Pacific. And so this brings me to a lot of questions and questioning people in French Polynesia, but also reading books, articles, and many, things.

And that's how I understood how important it was in fact for us as people in the Pacific, as Tahitians to understand our own history. Of course we cannot change the past, but to, I mean to try to deal as best we can with the future. We also have to understand how things happened and why now we are French speakers.

why we are living in the middle of the Pacific without any more connections with other islands in the Pacific and so on. all my, all the things that interested me, mean like podcasting or being director of a museum or even creating exhibition was really linked to that curiosity.

And also to this wish that for my kids for an example, but also for all the young people in French Polynesia, it will be easier now to better understand our situation, but also our history, our ancient traditions, and how we can deal with all of this complexity in this modern world. So yeah, I know that.

When you look at my background, it looks like without any real goal or sense, but in fact there is a path that I can see through all these activities.

Jess (14:53)

Yeah, of course. And I often ask, you know, having a few different backgrounds myself, there's often something that's connecting the dots that, like you said, you might not be able to see from the outside. But it sounds like becoming that missing link in storytelling is something that you've been able to kind of further through all your different roles and they're all some like quite creative roles in different ways as well. So

Speaking of that creative perspective and your projects in the creative sector, something I'm interested to hear about is your training as an architect. And also I want to understand how do architects see the world and look at the world? And is that a perspective that you find still influences you now in your various other work?

Miriama (15:42)

Yeah, well, I think that when you're studying architecture, and that's what also was the main interest for me, is that you have to question how people are living because you are building, organizing things for human beings, know, so you have to be curious about how people in different cultures, in different cities are going to use buildings, are going to use space. so yeah, you have a kind of curiosity.

about how, yeah, habits, bad habits and good ones, because you also have to deal with that and to question that. And so trying to think as an architect coming from an island was also quite challenging, because of course you also have to deal with resources. You also have to deal with substability.

You also have to deal with narratives that can be quite different because normally, I mean, in the Western concept, when you are building, you're building for years. mean, 10 years, 50 years, 20 years, a for a long period, which is in fact in the opposite of what you will normally do in Polynesian islands. Our ancestors used to build for few.

months in fact because of the climate, because they will move from island to island. So it was a different way to use the space and a different way to build things. So that's also challenging to try to find a balance between the way that we are living today and how we can adapt specificities like I don't know construction in wood for an example.

bio-climatic construction in Polynesian islands or in other islands. So it's really, think that architecture is mainly about questioning habits, questioning way of life and trying to deal with very complex issue to create a better environment, a better

better understanding for humankind, yeah, I think, I hope.

Jess (18:09)

Beautiful. And so do you see that as sort of a responsibility to create a space where people can act and experience things in different ways and and break those bad habits, sort of?

Miriama (18:23)

Yeah,

yeah, because I mean, you know, 20 years ago, we used to build, of course, without without questioning climate issues, for example, or energy, or even waste of materials. So even when I was studying, it was something that was a big issue for me, because coming from an island, I realized that, of course, you cannot use resources of the islands without questioning it.

And hopefully now we have changed a little bit this way of acting but sometimes you know still today I mean in French Polynesia but in other places people want to because again they think that that's the progress so they want to build in concrete they want you know because they want to be safe because you can have jurekins you can have lots of issues but it's as I said it's quite

challenging to find a balance between what is, what we should do, what we can do, and what we are doing. And sometimes, yeah, you can deal with that and sometimes it's more complicated. And somehow even when, so I was director of the museum, that was something that we also had to keep in mind because in fact, of course, building a museum is a specific building because you have, you know.

everything linked to conservation and so this is of course something that you have to deal with but you also have everything linked to tradition and to storytelling through the building which is always also challenging.

So yeah, it's a complex vision.

Jess (20:06)

Make it

Yeah, well I mean, it's easy to imagine how experiencing, you know, your upbringing on an island would shape how you understand resources as maybe more finite and having a a clearer view of what that is rather than this kind of globalized feeling of things being infinite and you can bring them from anywhere and it's invisible to you. I think that it sounds like

Yeah, you've had a really specific influence that shaped your understanding of sustainability in that architectural context. So it's an important thing to remember. It's it's not invisible, it's not infinite, but you know, things do get expended and run out and we can't keep building the same way forever, can we?

Miriama (20:52)

Yeah, and it's as I said, it's it's a kind of tension inside that you have to deal with and and dealing with people with politics too with many different Yeah, and and you But at the end if you manage to do so Yeah, you can have beautiful also

buildings, beautiful realization, beautiful way of trying to understand each other, which is always challenging.

Jess (21:29)

Yeah, I can imagine. And to dive a bit into that side of your career as a museum director, as a curator, a lot of museums sometimes feel like they're full of tourists or they're very academic or it's more about, you know, the a collection of a government. But sometimes when we visit museums, they don't necessarily feel like something that belongs to their own communities that they're in.

And I'm interested in how you see museums' role in connecting to community and how you've kind of made examples of that in your own work.

Miriama (21:59)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, for the museum in Tahiti, the name is Defari Yamana. So in Tahitian, it means the house where you keep your treasures. so the goal of the museum was really to be designed for Polynesian audience. It was really something that the government asked the museum teams to do.

So to do a museum for Polynesian people by Polynesian people, meaning that the target was not the tourists. Of course, if the tourists want to come to the museum, they are welcome to do so, of course, but the main target was really Polynesians and specifically also young audience because 30 % of the visitors in the museum in Tahiti are in fact the schools.

So that said, it brings also a very educational purpose of the museum, meaning that you have to speak to the young audience, you have to speak to local people. And in fact, well, you like this when you say that it seems quite evident, but that also brings a lot of specific issue. For an example, languages.

because if you are speaking to a Polynesian audience, it means also that you have to deal with the fact that we have several languages in French Polynesia. The first official language is French, meaning that in the island of Tahiti, everyone is in fact speaking French. I do, I speak French at home. But you also have, course, to highlight the native language. And so the first native language is the Tahitian.

but you also have other languages in other islands like in the Marquesas island for an example. we also have to think about that and as I said of course we are a touristic island so it was also important of course to have English. So that said it means that all the labels will be at least in three languages. So that's the first point but also you know...

The way that we displayed the object were also linked to their true meaning for the pollinations. To give you an example, we choose as much as we can to minimize the use of displaced cases, specifically for statues, for an example, because the T-E or the T-key.

which are the specific statues in French Polynesia, are representations of ancestors. So we believe, we still believe in French Polynesia that they have, that they are carrying the mana, so the energy, the power, the essence of the ancestors. So they are very sacred object. And if you want to connect with your ancestors, it's better not to have a glass.

between you and the statue. So we tried as much as we can to avoid display cases and that is not normally what museums are doing. Normally in museums you have cases, glasses everywhere. So even just this decision of avoiding as much as possible glasses was a real issue.

for the conservation, also for the architect and for all the teams because it seems to be, you know, something, a very simple decision but in fact after that when you have to deal with what is a museum and the security that you have to display around object, was very something that was challenging. But we...

we succeed on that. We kept on asking for as much as possible no glasses and in fact in the museums in Tahiti most of the statues are without glasses so that's and you have all the objects so it gives a kind of easier connection for the public with the object give them the impression that they can you know

touch them, smell them, have a physical connection with objects. Of course, they cannot touch them, but just, you know, from the, I mean, a physical sensation of proximity. And that's really an example of how you can create a museum that will, you know, highlight real connection and respect from

native perspective and for native beliefs. But again, it brings tension, brings lots of storytelling, brings lots of technical issues, but I really do think that it's worth it. It's a way to illustrate how you can do.

Jess (27:44)

It's a great illustration and I can almost see the metaphor there of you know often say for example with that binary definition of us and nature in museums you know there's us and there's the art and that glass is almost a representation of the the separateness of those two things and I suppose in a broader sense beyond the kind of cultural and spiritual connections to work.

I think people around the world can identify to some extent of feeling a connection with an artwork or looking at something and feeling something and having a conversation between you and the art. And I imagine it must be much more powerful on a cultural and spiritual level. And I can see the importance of removing that barrier to allow that relationship between person and object to really function in a meaningful way.

It's a great metaphor.

Miriama (28:44)

Yeah, of course.

I think it's an evidence for Polynesian people, but it doesn't mean that Western or non-Polynesian people cannot understand the deep meaning of this connection and cannot respect it. That's what we thought. mean that if you can show that they are not just objects, they are not just collections, they are not art.

there are more than that, there are representation of ancestors, are beliefs, there are also things that have been lost and that we are recovering, that we are highlighting now, that we are questioning right now. So it brings more complexity, more diversity, and it also brings other people, mean non-Polynesian people in that questioning process.

And I think it's also very important because, well, we are not living anymore alone in our island. We have visitors and also, I mean, we have internet. We are also questioning the rest of the world. So it's an ongoing question. And I think that it's also a way to include other people in this question, even because now in French, of course, you have native people, local people, but you also have French people who arrived.

20, 40 years ago who are now living in French Polynesia, who are also part of the society and who can also act in this recovering process in many ways. So that's also a way to share that. As I said, it's always dealing with complexity and it's always challenging. But I think also that if it is a goal of museum.

I mean, museum who is highlighting culture and history must go deeper and must also try to include every questions without all the time having answers. what I mean? I mean, you can just highlight things and let the public, let the audience find answers to all the questions that we all have. I mean, it's as human being.

Jess (31:03)

It's a fantastic way to think about the future of museums. And as we spoke about in our introduction today, another piece of that puzzle is about objects returning to their home. And I know you're

Miriama (31:15)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (31:16)

part of some of these projects and partnerships firsthand, particularly through your role during your time as the director of the Museum of Tahiti and the Islands. So could you share with us a bit about your experience overseeing repatriation efforts during that role that you had?

Miriama (31:35)

Yes, well, as you can imagine, was a long process involving a lot of people, of course, and involving also politics, because, I mean, when you are speaking about return, about repatriation, about all these issue links to heritage now, you cannot do it without a very strong political support.

for lots of reasons. One of the most evident one is because it costs a lot of money so you have to need to have the support of the politic. But also because I mean it's not just something you know asking for return. It's not just something like museum can do. It's something like that we can do as a community as a collective to ask for return. it was of course very challenging and also

I mean, it's a dialogue that you must have between institutions, so between several museums. And in fact, most of the times, museums in general are quite open to those questions, are more and more open, in fact. It's getting easier because, you know, I mean, people working in museums are...

Curious people are most of the time respecting the object that they are keeping. But on the other hand, you also have to care for the security, for the conservation, for many, complex questions. So the issue is not so easy, fact. So again, it's a question of balance.

And also because you have to consider that, of course, and that's the case for French Polynesia, for an example. You can, you know, we have thousands and thousands of objects being spread all around the world, mainly in Europe, but not only. You have Polynesian collections in New Zealand, for an example. mean, Tahitian collections and collections from French Polynesia in New Zealand, in Australia, in Hawaii, many, many countries. So, so.

somehow it's impossible to have returns of all the collections, so you have to make choices and of course you have to make choices and to deal with first again financial support but also to try to have returns that have meanings for populations that can also bring answers to young

people to schools to also arts to artists to many practices for an example. it was also a very complex question. So we had in French Polynesia for the reopening of the museum, we have 20 objects coming back. Most of them were in long term loan, meaning that it's not a repatriation.

It's long-term loan. So it's a return for six years. It depends on the object, but for many of them it's for six years. And we choose those objects through, for an example, the sacred purpose of the object or also through, for some of them, they were done with specific knowledge that we have lost.

So it was also interesting to have this object coming back home so that modern artists and keeper of knowledge can question them and try to reproduce them and try to study them and so and so. And that's what they did. So yeah, it's a really complex relation again. And it also comes with

a lot of questions of course linked to colonial history and to belief too because most of the objects from French Polynesia that are now overseas were given by the population to the priest for an example or as gift to Captain Cook and so and so.

It's also a question of what is the value of this gift? What is the value of these exchanges? Why do you give a statue, for an example, as proof as a renouncement to ancient beliefs and so and so and It was also challenging to go deeper into this storytelling, which is sometimes painful for the communities, sometimes very difficult still today to accept. But again, that's...

a part of our history, so it was also important to deal with all those issues.

Jess (36:53)

Wow, it sounds like a l a lot of practical work to make it happen, but very impactful on local kind of identity and knowledge and reconnecting and sometimes maybe, yeah, for the first time grappling with colonial stories in a very like physical way and and seeing those objects that were a part of those interactions and yeah, with with Captain Cook, wow, I I can't imagine the kind of

like story that an object like that would hold and what seeing it would feel like.

Miriama (37:30)

Yeah, yeah, and I mean still even for me, I am in that process of return. I learned a lot again about our own history, things that I don't know if they were hidden, but in fact they were untold and only few people knew about them. So it's also something that I think we have to deal with to talk about this period, to talk about.

our colonial history but without, you know, without opposing, you know, Western and Polynesian without being too binary, without, you know, just to see the fact how things happen, why our ancestors did some things and so, and to accept them to go forward in fact because we have to, we have to deal with that today and that's also a part of

how we can, I think, try to build something safer, something better for the next generation by understanding things.

Jess (38:36)

Really important work, and I'm sure it's had you know, obviously, all of your honors have made a testament to how this has really made such a huge cultural impact. So I think the very important stories to tell, and objects are such a great way to start those conversations as well. something else I'm curious to hear about is obviously so there's the practical side, there's the paperwork, the conservation, how it all happens, but there's also that

diplomatic side of the institutional relationships that you were forging and the trust building there. And I think it would be interesting to maybe paint a picture of what that looks like behind the scenes in terms of how those conversations actually start. You know, before you've secured a loan or talked about repatriation, how does that initial interaction work when you're building relationships with institutions overseas?

Miriama (39:35)

Well, in fact, it's like, I mean, every human interaction, you need to have trust, meanings that you have to speak together. And so what we did, and I say we because, so of course it was with the team of the museum, but also with the Minister of Culture of French Polynesia. We went to Europe, to London mainly, and to Paris, of course.

and to meet the people and to explain why we wanted to have returns for the reopening. Of course for the symbol, because that's a huge symbol, but also for all the reasons that I just shared, for the meaning of the object, for how it can help new generations and new artists to better understand knowledge of our ancestors. And so it's truly about trust and building relations.

I think that speaking together is the most important part because all the rest, the papers, the financial support and things like that is just the job that you have to do. But building trust, building respect, building relation is in fact the most difficult part. And that's also interesting because you know in Tahiti we are very...

positive and sometimes very naive people. So for example when we met teams in Europe and they said well perhaps we are going to think about it. For us it was okay that's a yes, but in fact it was a perhaps. But as we are very positive and we trust in ourselves so we didn't really so see where was no for us it was no problem. He said perhaps so let's go the process is on the way.

So it shows also how language and policy can be different from countries to countries. as soon as, in fact, as I said, the most difficult was to build the relation. And when we had trust, I mean, when the other institution realized that we can handle the situation, that we will build a safe museum with good condition to have, to...

show the object and that we can, I mean we can do a modern museum in French Polynesia. After that when we have built that relation, in fact the rest was easier. It took time of course because that's a lot of work and of course it's not that easy to move objects. You have to build specific cases, you have to, yeah it's you know, it's...

Processing museum can be quite complex, but that's just process I mean it's like doing anything else building an Air flight aircraft or building a ship or it's just a job that you have to do but yeah the most difficult is to build the relation and to show that we go to To have those object backed

Jess (42:42)

Okay.

So it

sounds like you really connected initially over the purpose and impact of the project. And then you build the trust through kind of working through the risk management and sort of showing that passage of care would be there and then the kind of further steps and and contracts and all those other bits and pieces kind of just followed off that foundation that you built.

Miriama (43:19)

Yeah, exactly. It betters me.

Jess (43:22)

Easier said than

done. and in this season of Art Strategy Impact and season one, we've talked a lot about ocean and cultural lenses on the ocean. We've talked about who is the ocean, what does it mean to have a connection with the ocean and how do we protect it? And through your work, but also just your perspective as a person.

Do you have any specific sort of perspectives about the ocean and do you have a personal connection with the ocean?

Miriama (43:59)

Yeah well as I said I was at first when we we start talking as I spoke about land but in fact ocean is for us part of the land. There is no limit between land and ocean. Ocean is part that's also why when you are presenting yourself introducing yourself you will also name your past your ocean your the lagoon around you I mean it's part of yourself.

And for us, ocean, I mean for Polynesian in general, not only in French Polynesia, not only Tahitian, but that's also the case for Hawaiians in New Zealand for the Maori in Aotearoa. The ocean is not a limit, it's a path, it's a link. Because through oceans you are linking islands. And so you are connecting people. So we don't see the ocean as...

Of course it's a mystery but we don't see the ocean as a limit of ourselves but as something that we have to first respect and secondly that we have to explore and to go through to be linked all together. So we have a specific connection with ocean. It is something very interesting that even if now you know in the Pacific.

We all have different history, different colonial history. We all speak different languages, but even if we, you still have the Polynesian languages and in all those languages, the ocean will always have the same name. It's always Moana. Moana is a word that you can understand in Tahiti, in Hawaii, in Eastern Island, in Outer Arawan New Zealand. And I think it's something amazing that

you know, through all those years, through all this history, through the migration, the ocean always kept the same name. I think it's wonderful. So now we are representing ourselves. Usually we are trying not to use the word Pacific because it's a Western name, but to use the name Moana, which is how normally how we name our ocean. Yeah.

Jess (46:03)

That is wonderful.

Miriama (46:20)

So it shows this connection for the Polynesian with ocean and well, you know, all the islanders, are surrendered by the sea, we are surrendered by the ocean. So we are ocean people. It's one of the first thing that we are learning when we are kids is to swim or to surf or to paddle, to have this physical connection behavior with ocean.

Because when you do so, when you're surfing and when you're paddling, you learn that the ocean will always be stronger than you. You're just a part of something. And that you have to respect also the power of the element. So that's also something that is quite important for us.

Jess (47:08)

Yes, the ocean is is very powerful. a few people I've spoken to on the podcast had kind of talked about an early fear of the ocean and wanting to kind of respect it in some ways, regardless of their perspective. I think there's always this reverence for the immensity of the ocean and their kind of power that it holds, you know, even for a kid playing on the beach who kind of learn it's it's this big

Miriama (47:11)

Yeah.

Jess (47:37)

powerful thing and I think respecting it and understanding it as a connector is a really important way to think about its role. And Miriama, you currently run the podcast Tahitian Talk in French, and you're continuing your kind of work in curation in exhibitions and you mentioned earlier you have special interest in Australian and French Polynesian youth. So what is next for you and

What are you focusing on in that space of youth and working to help acknowledge unseen talent in the arts?

Miriama (48:14)

Well, trying to, well, I'm working on many different projects, but the one who is the most important for me right now is to work as a curator and to, yeah, to work as a curator with young Polynesian artists and to highlight first their talent, but also to help them to travel and to have exhibitions all around the region.

because Haiti is wonderful, of course, but it's small island and we need to, yeah, I mean, I think we need first to share our storytelling, but we also need to share it with other nations, you know, we need to get into this conversation with other artists and also because we have to challenge lots of representation also.

about Tahitian art. For most of the people who know little bit about French Polynesia, for them we are mainly just dancers. So Tahitian dance is beautiful of course and quite interesting but we can do other things. We have a lot of sculptures, we have a lot of painters, we have a lot of very young artists starting to act like performers for an example.

And so that's really something that I want to highlight because I think we have things to say and we have things to share, but also because I want them to be part of the process that is now happening, I think, in all around the region, including in Australia, in questioning our history, in questioning perspective, and also in questioning how we can...

do better, how we can act better, how we can respect lands and respect people and respect knowledge and try to have better responses. So it's something very challenging and I think also very important, not just for Polynesian but for all the humans on earth that we have to question all of this and I really want Polynesian artists and Tahitian artists specifically

to be part of this conversation. think it's really important. So yeah, that's what I'm trying to challenge. And actually in a very interesting way since I've been working in the cultural industry, in the cultural world since more than 20 years, but I can feel since four or five years.

And then since the last years that there is a lot of interest in Australia for all these native perspective and all the stories of the Pacific. So maybe I think somehow Australia is more now open to this side of the ocean, to the Pacific side. And so yeah, I think that it's the good moment. There is opportunities for Pacific people.

to exchange with Australian artists and intellectuals and scholars. So it's a good moment to do it and I'm working on many artistic projects with Australia now. So yeah, hope that all of this will be highlighted in the next year.

Jess (51:51)

It sounds very exciting. Well, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing to, you know, enrich culture and all this fantastic perspectives that you've brought today. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your time with us today, Miriamma.

Miriama (52:06)

Thank you, Jess. Thank you. Maruru.

Jess (52:09)

Yeah,

Okay, I'm just gonna press stop.